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  1. #76
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Jim Morrison also said: "show me...the way...to the next whisky bar."

    Yeah ... but more inquiring minds want to know whether Morrison is still alive and in a Shebeen in South Africa ...


  2. #77
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Him, Tupac, and Elvis run a Church's Fried Chicken in Greenville, MS......

  3. #78
    moklerman Guest

    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    I'm pretty sure Bruce Lee and JFK are there too. To those who are fans of the slightly bizarre, check out a movie called Bubba Ho Tep, starring Bruce Campbell. Very fun and weird.

  4. #79
    moklerman Guest

    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Back to the topic at hand...I see where you're coming from Nick, BUT if Martz is "gripping" that much about coaching a pressure game--afraid to go for the td because something bad might happen, afraid to leave any time on the clock in case of a bad snap, for fear of a return for td, etc. then it further enforces the idea that he doesn't handle big game situations to me.

    If he always coached conservatively that would be one thing, but when he does a complete 180 in big game situations it kinda looks bad. You know what they say: "stick with what got you there".

  5. #80
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Moklerman
    You know what they say: "stick with what got you there".
    Of course some would say he did by going with Wilkins. I wouldn't say that, but some would.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #81
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Of course some would say he did by going with Wilkins. I wouldn't say that, but some would.
    Touché. That's a very interesting point. I'm not saying that at this point either, but how many games were won with the offense driving down the field and Wilkins hitting a game winner? There were a couple that I can remember.

    Mok, you're taking the perspective that this was a move inspired by fear, and I have to disagree with that stance. I'm not convinced that the move is one of fear but one of realization. He realized the Rams had been struggling in the red zone, and adjusted accordingly. Are all adjustments that aren't aggressive in nature reduced to mere acts of fear?
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  7. #82
    moklerman Guest

    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    feared, worried, expected the worst, however you want to phrase it, Martz seemed to be more concerned about failing than succeeding.

  8. #83
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Would you have prefered he leave, say, eight seconds on the clock, kick the field goal, and leave enough time for Carolina to receive a kickoff and possibly run it back for a TD? After all, the Rams' special teams coverage over the past couple seasons has been suspect at best. I sure wouldn't have wanted to give Carolina that free shot.

    And to my knowledge, Dane Looker is not a man who has made it a habit of mishandling holds.

    We'll see whether or not this is a sound enough explanation for you. I think it makes a lot of sense, considering very rarely do I see coaches leave extra time on the clock in case of a muffed handle by the holder. To criticize Martz for not doing so in this situation seems like a reach to me.
    Yeah, well your explanation is a reach.

    Remember, this is a kick to TIE the game not WIN the game. You are giving the panthers any number of shots just by going into sudden death. Once you make the decision to go for the TIE a coach should use every available option in order to increase the chances of insuring the TIE. Anything can happen on any given play. Just as some have tried to spin it that there were significant odds of a turnover or a failure in going for the TD there are also odds of a bad snap or a mishandle of the snap. It's not just Looker but Massey and other variables are involved as well.

  9. #84
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    It's not just Looker but Massey and other variables are involved as well.
    There's are reasons Wilkins had a career year last season, and two of them are Looker and Massey, who were spot on last season on the field goal unit. I believe the odds of a bad snap or a mishandle were significantly lower than the odds of a turnover, sack, penalty, etc etc on the win attempt, and I think the frequency of of those events both through the season and in this game show that to be the case.

    So, let me see, which do I trust more... my field goal unit which produced the first Pro Bowl birth for my kicker, who was absolute money all year long, or my special teams unit which has been a weakness of my team for a number of seasons? Choice seems pretty easy to me, so like I said, criticizing Martz for not leaving time on the clock seems like a reach IMO. I wonder if you're as critical of other coaches who do this as well, because Lord knows I've seen a number of them every weekend. This isn't exactly some Martz specific blunder.
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  10. #85
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    So, let me see, which do I trust more... my field goal unit which produced the first Pro Bowl birth for my kicker, who was absolute money all year long, or my special teams unit which has been a weakness of my team for a number of seasons? Choice seems pretty easy to me, so like I said, criticizing Martz for not leaving time on the clock seems like a reach IMO.
    It doesn't matter.

    The FG attempt is for a TIE not a WIN. Once you get the TIE even if there is no time left in regulation there are 50/50 odds that you have to kick off. Even if you win the toss there are odds that something could go wrong when you receive the kick. But, first things first, you must secure the TIE. Failure to use every available means at your disposal to increase the chances of securing the TIE is a mistake. I'm still waiting!!!


    :ramlogo:

  11. #86
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Failure to use every available means at your disposal to increase the chances of securing the TIE is a mistake.
    It would seem to me by not allowing Carolina another possession after the tie, the Rams are in fact securing overtime. Had they left time on the clock, the tie itself would have been in more jeopardy. But whatever. It's been clear from the get-go that you're opinion is locked, and feigning the notion that you'd actually let up on Martz served no purpose at all. When you simply shrug off consistent performance by a field goal unit by saying "It doesn't matter," then clearly your mind was made up a long time ago.
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  12. #87
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    It would seem to me by not allowing Carolina another possession after the tie, the Rams are in fact securing overtime. Had they left time on the clock, the tie itself would have been in more jeopardy. But whatever. It's been clear from the get-go that you're opinion is locked, and feigning the notion that you'd actually let up on Martz served no purpose at all. When you simply shrug off consistent performance by a field goal unit by saying "It doesn't matter," then clearly your mind was made up a long time ago.
    No, no, no - you're missing my point. I gave you the decision to go for the FG, many posts ago. Doesn't mean I agree with it, rather, I am giving it up to try and prove my point that Martz didn't have a clue as to what he wanted to do at the end of regulation. He made a mistake in the management of that situation.

    You seem to miss the point that carolina has a 50/50 chance at an immediate possesion in OT. It will be the same situation since it is sudden death OT. You bring up ST's as a possibility of losing the game after the TIE if time is remaining and the Rams have to kick. The same possibility exists on the first play in OT, whether the Rams kick or receive. What the hell is the difference? None, as far as I can see. I could somewhat agree with what Martz did if the game had already been TIED and the FG attempt was for the WIN.

    Still Waiting!!!

  13. #88
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    What the hell is the difference?
    There's a decent sized break between the end of regulation and OT when compared to the field goal kick and a last second kickoff in regulation. Perhaps he wanted to use the extra time to get his players as much rest as possible so they'd be prepared to defend against Carolina. Had he kicked the field goal with time left on the clock, his players would have had less time to rest and would have had that one last play prior to OT. Perhaps he just wanted to get the team calmed down, rested, composed, and into OT.

    Ferter, listen to what you're saying. You're *****ing about Martz not leaving time on the clock on a tying field goal attempt at the end of this game. To make this into the huge issue its become in this discussion signals an underlying dislike of the coach himself that isn't going to change in this conversation. Like I said, your mind was made up a long time ago. Why continue to argue the point?
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  14. #89
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    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    Ok, whatever Nick. I'm laughing fairly hard at the decent sized break and the calmed down theories. I would have to say that the majority of kick coverage players had been resting. There is communication between Martz and the kick coverage coaches via the headset or other means. Hard for me to believe they couldn't get the guys composed on the sidelines for an kickoff. Also, if he spikes the ball saves the timeout and doesn't need to use it, in case of something going wrong, then he would have that at his disposal to help with composure and getting everyone on the same page.

    There is no underlying dislike from me towards Martz. Hell that is just another typical copout when we disagree about something. I could easily insinuate that you are predisposed to defend Martz at all costs since you have made lengthy posts in the defense of his decisions over this and the QB situation, but of course that would also be a copout on my part.

    Fine, we can end the discussion of our opposing points, if you wish, but don't throw it all on me as the only one arguing his point. I said come up with a reasonable explanation and I would back off. You took me up on the offer and failed to convince me, so you are arguing or contending your point just as much as I am. Agree to disagree, but if it ever comes up again, my opinion will be the same, and I will more than likely express it.

  15. #90
    ramfaninpgh Guest

    Re: Mike Martz #8 on FSN's Top 10 Dumbest Moments

    What I find interesting in reading these running threads in which we posters lay out the various scenarios and the logic to support them, is the forgotten fact that Mike Martz is looking at pretty much the same choices and scenarios.

    But he has to process all of the possibilities, surrounded by 60,000 fans screaming so loudly he can't hear himself, 53 of his players and coaches on the sideline and one (?) in his headset, adrenalinized (is that a word?) and sweating under the pressure of a decision that means the season, and he only has a matter of seconds to make the call.

    Sure, he's paid a lot of money to be in that position, but do you think that the money makes it any easier?

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