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  1. #1
    39thebeast's Avatar
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    My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    The more I think about all the candidates available the more I think Leslie Frazier is the right guy. First off as an assistant coach he has been a winner, he has only been part of one loosing season. He has drawn comparisons to Tony Dungy because they have the same demeanor and that's what is going make players jump on board and play hard for him. Offensively he is going to want to run the ball. Bulger Is going to be better, because he will be asked to do much less. I think his system may be the best fit for our defensive current players. Take a look at how he runs his different defensive units.

    D-line
    -He plays with smaller DE's that can still be dominant. I think he can groom Carriker into his own version of Kevin Williams. Carriker and Williams are extremely similar being tall pass rushing DT's. Chris Long could also be his Jared Allen. He also has a vet like Little who is perfect for his system. He may want to get someone to help out Ryan at NT or he could just take his play to another level. Also alot of his depth on his d-line are FA's that he could bring in who already know his system.

    Line Backer
    - He does play much bigger LBs than we do, but that is exactly what we need. WLB is arguably the most important position in the Tampa 2. Spoon will be the perfect player for him there. With Spoon he will have is Chad Greenway and more. SLB isn't as important in his system so that also helps us out so we could get by with Draft and Culberson. MLB we do need to address. He will be looking for a bigger guy who can cover, rush the passer, and most importantly be a run stuffer and be His E.J. Henderson. I think we could address this in FA with a guy like Channing Crowder or in the Second Round of the draft with a versatile LB like Clint Sintim of Virginia. Pisa would be the odd ball out, but he definately would have a role somewhere on the defense. He is a great fit for the Tampa especially for Frazier's version since he can rush the passer.

    Secondary
    - The Tampa 2 calls for corners who can jam WR's and Safeties that can cover. Resigning Bartell and OJ will be essential. Bartell is the perfect big Corner for his system he will be able to jam and cover. He will be even better than Vikings current starter Cedric Griffin. OJ will continue to be a playmaker in the secondary like a Younger Darren Sharper. Todd Johnson can be a decent SS in this system sice safties have to be cover guys more than they have to be heavy hitters. Johnson has also played in Lovie Smiths Tampa 2 which share some similarities with Frazier's system. We will need a young guy to eventually become the starter. The biggest question will be can Tye Hill be Antoine Winfield. Hill excelled in Clemson's Cover 2 and we will see if he can do it here. Hill and Winfield are both 5-9 corners, but Winfield is much more physical. If Hill wants to succeed he will have to play a much more physical brand of football, but if he can he will excel in this system. Depth wise the rams have Craft, King, and wade. Craft had his best years in the cover 2 and is also a great blitzer to put in his scheme. Justin King has the size and speed, but like Tye Hill will also have to become more physical, but he is hard worker and intelligent player who could ultimately end up starting across from Bartell. Wade will ultimately be a hit a or miss, but will be solid depth.


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    RockinRam's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Good post.

    Isn't Clint Sintim an outside linebacker? Just making sure.

    I would rather consider Mckillop instead of Sintim, but Sintim has the size and speed to develop into a middle linebacker.

    I would rather draft a strong safety like Hamlin or Smith instead of relying on Todd Johnson. Somehow, I don't seem we can rely on the guy very much. He is a great special team player though, and he would make a good backup.

    As I've said, Frazier is one of my favorites right now, and I wouldn't complain if he was chosen as our HC.

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    39thebeast's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by RockinRam View Post
    Good post.

    Isn't Clint Sintim an outside linebacker? Just making sure.

    I would rather consider Mckillop instead of Sintim, but Sintim has the size and speed to develop into a middle linebacker.

    I would rather draft a strong safety like Hamlin or Smith instead of relying on Todd Johnson. Somehow, I don't seem we can rely on the guy very much. He is a great special team player though, and he would make a good backup.

    As I've said, Frazier is one of my favorites right now, and I wouldn't complain if he was chosen as our HC.
    Sintim is an OLB, but alot of rookie LBs like Jon Beason, Stewart Bradley, Demeco Ryans, and Paul Puzlusny have maded the sucesffull transition to MLB. Of all the names on that list Sintim reminds of Stewart Bradley, but Sintim is a better pass rusher and is better in pass coverage. Bradley also plays verry in Jim Johnsons scheme that shares similarities with Fraziers.

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    NJ Ramsfan1 is offline Registered User
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    39thebeast-

    I remember Leslie Frazier from his days as a player, but I honestly don't know much about him as a coach and therefore can't really dispute your well thought-out post. What I WILL say is that my personal preference would be bringing a hard nosed, no nonsense guy in here who will toughen these guys up. Among the many faults the Rams had was a complete lack of toughness and an inability to overcome adversity. I want this team's toughness and intensity to rival that of Baltimore, Philly & Pittsburgh on a weekly basis- end of story.

    It is a cliche but so true EFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. The Ravens won a SuperBowl on the strength of their defense. The Giants knocked off an undefeated Patriots team last year to win the Super Bowl. Tampa Bay had outstanding defensive teams for a number of years in the recent past. Pittsburgh and Philly are always very good defensively. We can talk about the Steven Jacksons and the Donnie Averys and the Marc Bulgers all we want, but the bottom line is the Rams need a defense that scares people with difference makers.

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    Tony Soprano's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    .
    I point to his lack of experience as a Coordinator.

    He's had TWO Years.

    One of those two years, his Defense came in dead last in the NFL
    in Pass Defense - combined (yardarge) it came in 20th. The Rams
    (under Linehan) came in 21st.

    I say let him win a Playoff game (or even a Wildcard game) as a Defensive coordinator - as I would want an offensive coordinator that won a Playoff or Wildcard game too.




    .
    .

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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post
    .
    I point to his lack of experience as a Coordinator.

    He's had TWO Years.

    One of those two years, his Defense came in dead last in the NFL
    in Pass Defense - combined (yardarge) it came in 20th. The Rams
    (under Linehan) came in 21st.

    I say let him win a Playoff game (or even a Wildcard game) as a Defensive coordinator - as I would want an offensive coordinator that won a Playoff or Wildcard game too.

    .
    Jon Harbaugh and Tony Sporano, both weren't even coordinators. The year you referring to was his first year as defensive coordinator, but he still had the number 1 rush defense give him some slack. The defense improved greatly in his second year ranking 6th overall. His secondary showed great improvement this year Antoine Winfield played at the highest level he has played in a while. He also was missing his star FS most of the season. His star MLB and leader of the defense only played a few games and yet his defense improved with the only major being Jared Allen. Regarding to your coments about winning a play off game Harbaugh didn't even make the playoffs and Sporano didn't win either. The bottom line the head coach position is about being a leader of men. It doesn't matter if your an soft spoken guy or disciplinarian. All that matters is that when a head coach leads a player follows and I think Leslie Frazier can definately do that.

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    maineram's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Reach, reach, reach................ I'd rather have Haslett !!!

    Maineram -
    and out of the ashes rise ...The Breakfast Club !

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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    I like Frazier, but I wouldn't necessarily get my hopes up about him converting Carriker into a Kevin Williams. Williams put up double digit sacks in each of his first two seasons, and that was before Frazier ever arrived in Minnesota. Kevin is tall and did start out as a defensive end who transitioned to the interior of the line successfully (like Carriker), but he was one of those rare players who arrives in the league already ranking among the best at their position.

    As far as using smaller defensive ends, I got the impression that the reason they were last in pass defense in 2007 was because they were also dead last in pass rush. Jared Allen was impressive in 2008, as one would expect, but they didn't get just a whole lot from the rest of their ends.

    The thing that I like about his defenses in Minnesota is that they've tended to force opponents to be one dimensional. If you force the other team to go the air, you've got a better chance of making them throw an interception. That's especially true in a scheme where the safeties provide coverage over the top, letting the corner underneath make a play on the ball.

  9. #9
    RamWraith's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Of all the candidates, this is my least favorite one.

    I live in Minnesota and have many opportunities to watch him and his defense. I have had several conversations with Viking fans and listened to many media people talk about him and his style.

    It is my opinion that the Vikings are successful based much on talent and not scheme. I really think this unit is an underachieving group. You have Allen, Williams boys, Greenway, Sharper, Winfield, Henderson and Leber. All with TONS of talent. However, to not be absolutely dominate is a crying shame. He inherited all this talent under Tomlin. Nothing was pieced together by him. His schemes are generic and simple. Players do not seem to engage him or look for direction from him. He seems very simple and non-aggressive. The players play because of other players around each other. You take away the players and you have a less than average defense.

    Not sure what he would bring to the table. But in all honesty...not sure what anyone in the hunt would do for us.
    Last edited by RamWraith; -01-07-2009 at 08:39 PM.

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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post
    .
    I point to his lack of experience as a Coordinator.

    He's had TWO Years.

    One of those two years, his Defense came in dead last in the NFL
    in Pass Defense - combined (yardarge) it came in 20th. The Rams
    (under Linehan) came in 21st.

    I say let him win a Playoff game (or even a Wildcard game) as a Defensive coordinator - as I would want an offensive coordinator that won a Playoff or Wildcard game too.


    The point was made to you yesterday that the reason the team was toward the bottom of the league in passing defense was because teams simply could not run the ball against them.

    Moreover, your reference "One of two years" is simple an omission of truth. This season, the Vikings had he #5 overall defense in the league, coming in #4 against the run and #8 against the pass. If an improvement from #32 to #8, from #20 to #5 doesn't speak volumes to you I don't know what will. What have the Rams done in recent memory that even compares to that?

    I don't put that playoff loss on Frazier's head. The Vikings won this season on the back of defense and running and despite woeful quarterback play by Ferotte and Jackson. There were basically 3 plays in the football game last weekend. Asante Samuel's INT TD, Brian Westbrook's breakaway TD, and Adrian Peterson's TD. Aside from that one play, the Vikes contained Westbrook all day. So why did he score? He's Brian Westbrook-- I don't think there's a miracle defensive solution to Brian Westbrook.

    Your preferred candidate, Rex Ryan, has had 3 seasons as a co-ordinator. I just don't see the point you're making.

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    Tony Soprano's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by Bar-bq View Post
    The point was made to you yesterday that the reason the team was toward the bottom of the league in passing defense was because teams simply could not run the ball against them.

    Moreover, your reference "One of two years" is simple an omission of truth. This season, the Vikings had he #5 overall defense in the league, coming in #4 against the run and #8 against the pass. If an improvement from #32 to #8, from #20 to #5 doesn't speak volumes to you I don't know what will. What have the Rams done in recent memory that even compares to that?

    I don't put that playoff loss on Frazier's head. The Vikings won this season on the back of defense and running and despite woeful quarterback play by Ferotte and Jackson. There were basically 3 plays in the football game last weekend. Asante Samuel's INT TD, Brian Westbrook's breakaway TD, and Adrian Peterson's TD. Aside from that one play, the Vikes contained Westbrook all day. So why did he score? He's Brian Westbrook-- I don't think there's a miracle defensive solution to Brian Westbrook.

    Your preferred candidate, Rex Ryan, has had 3 seasons as a co-ordinator. I just don't see the point you're making.

    You are wrong there.

    Rex Ryan - Defensive Coordinator 2005 2006 2007 2008

    That's four years - twice as long.

    In 2005, his first season as defensive coordinator, Baltimore finished second in the AFC in total defense. In 2006, Baltimore had the league's top-ranked defense in yardage and points.

    And maybe the most important thing - the guy has coached his Defense
    to wins in the Playoffs.


  12. #12
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post

    You are wrong there.

    Rex Ryan - Defensive Coordinator 2005 2006 2007 2008

    That's four years - twice as long.

    In 2005, his first season as defensive coordinator, Baltimore finished second in the AFC in total defense. In 2006, Baltimore had the league's top-ranked defense in yardage and points.

    And maybe the most important thing - the guy has coached his Defense
    to wins in the Playoffs.

    But surely his familiarity with the team and the strength of the defense when he took over came into play. The Ravens defense has been one of the best virtually every year for the last decade.

    Also, the Ravens' win against the Dolphins last week was their first playoff win since they beat the Dolphins in the Wild Card round back in 2001 when Rex was coaching the defensive line. If you count the playoff victories when he was a defensive assistant, then I think you have to count the Super Bowl Frazier helped win with the Colts as a defensive backs coach.

    Another point here about Frazier would be that he has had some success in different capacities with different teams, whereas with Ryan, you always have to wonder whether it was because of the outstanding defensive personnel the Ravens have had.

  13. #13
    Bar-bq's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post

    You are wrong there.

    Rex Ryan - Defensive Coordinator 2005 2006 2007 2008

    That's four years - twice as long.

    In 2005, his first season as defensive coordinator, Baltimore finished second in the AFC in total defense. In 2006, Baltimore had the league's top-ranked defense in yardage and points.

    And maybe the most important thing - the guy has coached his Defense
    to wins in the Playoffs.

    Feel free to ignore everything stated about Frazier and continue to focus only on what you want. I'm not debating that Ryan would be a great head coach. But your dismissal of Frazier on grounds of inexperience and counterproductive coaching are far from the truth. You're omitting factual information in order to make the same blindsighted points over and over.

    And wins in the playoffs? One. It happened last week.

    I don't doubt that Baltimore have a great defense and it has a lot to do with Ryan and his schemes. I'd probably prefer him as a head coach over Farzier at this point. But goodness, I have a hard time believing the Rams FO would count Frazier out at this point. It's why they've asked for an interview.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamWraith View Post
    I really think this unit is an underachieving group. You have Allen, Williams boys, Greenway, Sharper, Winfield, Henderson and Leber. All with TONS of talent. However, to not be absolutely dominate is a crying shame. You take away the players and you have a less than average defense.

    Not sure what he would bring to the table. But in all honesty...not sure what anyone in the hunt would do for us.
    I see what you're saying. Our Rams Defense is practically devoid of talent and it remains to be seen what kind of impact he could have on a team without the players you've listed.

    However, this team improved on Frazier's watch from #32 in passing D in his first season to number 8 in his second. Do generic schemes warrant that kind of increase in production?
    Last edited by Bar-bq; -01-07-2009 at 09:46 PM.

  14. #14
    39thebeast's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano View Post

    You are wrong there.

    Rex Ryan - Defensive Coordinator 2005 2006 2007 2008

    That's four years - twice as long.

    In 2005, his first season as defensive coordinator, Baltimore finished second in the AFC in total defense. In 2006, Baltimore had the league's top-ranked defense in yardage and points.

    And maybe the most important thing - the guy has coached his Defense
    to wins in the Playoffs.

    He also coached a team with Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Haloti Ngata, Chris McCalister, Bart Scott, Terrell Suggs, and Adalius Thomas to name a few guys. That really pales is comparison to the viking who have an elitel d-line and nothing to special behind that. He has had the most talented defensive rosters in the league for quite some time and all of those guys have been around long before 2005, in fact they are mike Nolan and AMrvin Lewis guys and we all know how good head coachs they are. I do think Nolan and Ryan are way different.

    Wraith if you say Frazier got through with Tomlins players and and talent you can say the same for Ryan who has the most talent in the league on the defensive side of the ball. Ray Lewis's Intensity and Ed Reeds smarts and play making ability are hardly scheme IMO. Secondaly, they really weren't Tomlins players either becuase since he was only the defensive coordinator in 2006 and had been in tampa bay the previous 5 years. Tomlins defense was 8th overall when he got the Pittsburgh job compared to Fraziers 6th overall this year.

    On the topic of Kevin Williams in comparison to Adam Carriker you can't really compare there first 2 years. Williams was asked to be a penetrator and get in the backfield takcle the RB or sack the QB. In Carrikers first year and most of his second he has played NT abd has been asked to take up blockers. I think Frazier and his staff will be like hey this guy is really similar to kevin Williams lets put him in the same situations we put Kevin Williams in and watch him make the same types of play. I think they play Carriker exclusively at UT and give him a bigger role as a pass rusher. I think it does have something to do with the Scheme becuase Williams recorderd his most sacks and tackles since 2004.

    He comes from the Tony Dungy coaching Tree, this guy knows how to Coach. He does plenty of experience and in his ten years he has developed a system by being an assistant coach under defensive Gurus like Tony Dungy, Jim Johnson, and Marvin Lewi.

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    Fat Pang's Avatar
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    Re: My case for Leslie Frazier as HC

    I'm not in favour of Frazier but neither am I wholly in favour of Ryan either. To me, the current list of candidates has left me distinctly underwhelmed and I'm of the opinion that in both of the above-named candidatures there's been good use made of some very useful talent. That's unfair to them in the sense that you can only make use of what you have available but in both cases I think you can make the case that neither Frazier or Ryan have been outstanding when perhaps we might have expected them to be.

    I'm not suggesting for a minute that this disbars them from consideration for the top job at the Rams or that I'd be devastated if either one of them got it, rather that I'm trying to make the case that neither man to me is head and shoulders above what we already have and might yet have in Jim Haslett with a different staff.

    The point was made in a different thread by the beast and made again here that Ryan has benefitted from a stellar playing staff. Having read 'Next Man Up' recently (which was an excellent book, more of a passive portrayal than a critique in my view but great reading) it became very clear (as if wasn't already) just how important Ozzie Newsome was to the construction of the identity of the Baltimore Ravens and their defence (one and the same to many people). If you really want to raid the Baltimore Ravens for talent I suggest we start with Ozzie to be perfectly honest and it wouldn't be to play tight-end, although we could use the help.

    This is underwritten by the performance of the DC's who have left and gone on to head-coaching jobs elsewhere. In the case of both Marvin Lewis and Mike Nolan there has been a noticeable failure to 'crack-on' in northern English parlance; a failure to establish the same kind of defensive dominanace that they made their names with at Baltimore. Baltimore itself meanwhile has ridden along relatively unaffected by their departures maintaning the same level of statistical performance if not always the same won-loss record.

    5-11 wasn't that long ago for the Ravens, despite the much-lauded nature of the defence the Ravens imploded. Point to the offensive offence if you must but I'd point you to previous seasons in which a meagre offensive output was sufficient for the defence to grind out 10 wins a season and get them in the playoffs. Point to injuries to Ed Reed and Ray Lewis and I'd make the point that was often made here when we were discussing the offensive line horrors of a couple of seasons back and say that if co-ordinating talent was a given in the case of Rex Ryan then surmounting the loss of a player, let alone a whole unit could be reasonably expected.

    I'm not saying that Rex Ryan is a bad coach or an undeserving candidate per se but I am making the case for caution when you start throwing around seasonal statistics as some sort of cover-all in terms of head-coaching job applications. I'm also more interested in how coaches respond to adversity and less then stellar talent, which is why I'm interested in the man that managed to surmount the loss of a single player in Brady and turn Cassell into the likely recipient of the Patriots Franchise tag for next season. That to me is evidence of co-ordinating and coaching talent. Whether he comes from Belichick or not is immaterial, there's a real story there that the Rams F.O have to look deeper into and I'm glad they are.
    Last edited by Fat Pang; -01-08-2009 at 03:43 AM.

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