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  1. #31
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    First, let me say that I call it like I see it. I bang on Bulger and any other player when I think they deserve to be banged on. And that will never stop. Unlike some, I will hold him accountable when he doesn't play well or when I believe he's not getting his fair share of the blame..
    Problem is I don't really see you holding anyone else accountable except Bulger. I don't think Bulger is perfect and realize he make mistakes but I also realize there are other factors for his play not being up to par like the surrounding cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Conversely, I will give props when they are earned. So if there is anybody here who thinks I'm a Bulger-hater, they are wrong.
    You just won't ever give Marc props when he does play well. Didn't hear much from you last week after a successful thrashing of the Cowboys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I supported the change in favor of Marc Bulger when he took over for Kurt Warner. I believe that Marc at that time, gave us the best chance to win, and he proved that once he got his chance. But even then I realized his limitations. At the top of that list, his lack of mobility, which bites him everytime out.
    Warner was more mobile??? Maybe the o-line needs to afford him more time even Haslett said as much. I'm not saying every sack is on the o-line but it's not like Bulger can just throw the ball away everytime he is pressured. J.C. Pearson kept saying throw the ball away but he has to be outside the pocket. Which he isnt really outside the pocket much since he is a pocket passer. I would love to see one game where Bulger got as much time to throw as Cassell did yesterday because he would tear defenses to shreds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    It's natural to think that the O-Line must not be blocking when the sacks begin to mount, but if you look deeper as I do, you'll realize that it's not always their fault. But not many people on this board will point that out. So I do. There are countless things that Marc Bulger could do or do better throughout the course of a game. You'd have to be blind not to see that in my opinion.
    There are also countless things the o-line and wr's could do better but as I stated above you only hold Marc accountable. Sure every sack isnt the o-lines fault but maybe no one was open and Marc didnt have time to throw it away. Sure Maybe once in a while Marc holds on trying to make something happen but I also know of a very respected qb in Arizona that is the same way. As for everyone being blind that doesnt see the same short comings you see is rediculous because unless you are watching from the press box you dont see squat that going on downfield. You dont know what coverage the d is in and you dont know if the wr ran an incorrect route like on the Bulger INT. So please feel free to hold other players accountable not just Bulger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    There are many on this board who are reluctant to blame Marc Bulger for anything. So I have taken it upon myself to hold him accountable. Like it or not.
    Funny I dont think I have ever said he is perfect I just realize there are other factors. See this is most Bulger haters views they call us apologists for not blaming everything on Bulger. Funny you said you would hold other players accountable but never see you doing that just Bulger. Is he responsible everytime the Rams lose? Is it all on his shoulders? I don't think so and I'm realistic and see there are other factors that go into how Bulger performs. O-line,wr,rb, and play calling all factor in. If you disagree feel free to expalin why it's all on him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I won't get into reasons why Peyton Manning and Phillip Rivers are performing the way they are, because I really couldn't care less. Neither is a concern of mine, but Marc Bulger is.

    And with all the apologists on this board, I guess we'll combine to cover this guy from all angles.
    The reason you won't get into the Manning debate is because it supports mine and other views that the supporting cast can make even the best of qb's look absolutley ordinary. A lot of Bulger problems or things you hold him accountable for are sometimes the fault of players around him. I'm not an apologist I just realize this is a team game not a Bulger game.

    Just Fix It

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    I'm sorry to say it, but naming 10 is not hard. In no particular order:

    Peyton Manning
    Eli Manning
    Tom Brady
    Drew Brees
    Philip Rivers
    Jay Cutler
    Aaron Rodgers
    Donovan McNabb
    Tony Romo
    Matt Schaub

    There are a couple more who are close to Bulger in skill as well such as Carson Palmer, Jake Delhomme, Kurt Warner, David Garrard, Brett Favre, Jason Campbell, Chad Pennington, Ben Roethlisberger.

    I don't get why it's not acceptable to criticize Bulger the way it's perfectly acceptable around here to criticize any other player we have. I'm not seeing those guys allegedly saying "Everything is Bulger's fault" that are used as strawmen in defending Bulger but I'm seeing some people that apparently can't find any fault with Bulger as long as our O-line isn't perfect.

    A lot of the QB's on that list are pretty damn good at making plays under pressure, I'm just not seeing that from Bulger. I don't think I'm asking the impossible of him. But I'm not going to be satisfied with him playing as a game-managing QB trying not to lose the game for us - with how good he used to be and how big a contract he has in my opinion he has to be a playmaker and -yes- sometimes he has to create something out of nothing like a top NFL QB does. Given ample time he can take what the defense gives him, but that's not enough to be a top 10 NFL QB, he just looks rattled mentally in my opinion. I don't blame him, he has taken so many hits over the years, but I just don't like his decision making and his clutch performance or his performance under pressure with guys closing in.

    I used to be the biggest Bulger supporter (I've never agreed he didn't have a good deep ball, as I see that as one example of undeserved criticism) and I would agree any time that he took a lot of flak that he didn't deserve (part of it because of the way he took over from Kurt Warner), but I'm just not seeing the same Bulger this year or last that we saw a couple of years ago. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, the rest of the year should be enough to see what he's got. We can win games with Bulger if everyone else is playing well, Bulger is just not contributing as much as I feel he should as our QB, leader and highest paid player.

  3. #33
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    Problem is I don't really see you holding anyone else accountable except Bulger. I don't think Bulger is perfect and realize he make mistakes but I also realize there are other factors for his play not being up to par like the surrounding cast.



    You just won't ever give Marc props when he does play well. Didn't hear much from you last week after a successful thrashing of the Cowboys.



    Warner was more mobile??? Maybe the o-line needs to afford him more time even Haslett said as much. I'm not saying every sack is on the o-line but it's not like Bulger can just throw the ball away everytime he is pressured. J.C. Pearson kept saying throw the ball away but he has to be outside the pocket. Which he isnt really outside the pocket much since he is a pocket passer. I would love to see one game where Bulger got as much time to throw as Cassell did yesterday because he would tear defenses to shreds.



    There are also countless things the o-line and wr's could do better but as I stated above you only hold Marc accountable. Sure every sack isnt the o-lines fault but maybe no one was open and Marc didnt have time to throw it away. Sure Maybe once in a while Marc holds on trying to make something happen but I also know of a very respected qb in Arizona that is the same way. As for everyone being blind that doesnt see the same short comings you see is rediculous because unless you are watching from the press box you dont see squat that going on downfield. You dont know what coverage the d is in and you dont know if the wr ran an incorrect route like on the Bulger INT. So please feel free to hold other players accountable not just Bulger.



    Funny I dont think I have ever said he is perfect I just realize there are other factors. See this is most Bulger haters views they call us apologists for not blaming everything on Bulger. Funny you said you would hold other players accountable but never see you doing that just Bulger. Is he responsible everytime the Rams lose? Is it all on his shoulders? I don't think so and I'm realistic and see there are other factors that go into how Bulger performs. O-line,wr,rb, and play calling all factor in. If you disagree feel free to expalin why it's all on him.



    The reason you won't get into the Manning debate is because it supports mine and other views that the supporting cast can make even the best of qb's look absolutley ordinary. A lot of Bulger problems or things you hold him accountable for are sometimes the fault of players around him. I'm not an apologist I just realize this is a team game not a Bulger game.

    If you had done some research on why it is I'm taking it upon myself to hold Marc Bulger accountable, you would not have even written this post.

    But since you didn't, I'll take the liberty of bringing you up to speed, though I hate having to repeat things that are already written. I do realize that not everybody will understand my point of view no matter what I say, but here goes...

    The main reason why I decided to hold him accountable is because nobody else was doing it. Or if they were, they were being drowned out by all the apologists on this board. Plain and simple.

    Not you, not those writing commentaries every week, not even many responding to those commentaries had anything to say that could even be remotely constrewed as negative about Marc Bulger.

    My point is simple, YES THE O-LINE HAS BEEN TERRIBLE until recently, YES TORRY HOLT APPEARS TO HAVE ABANDONED SHIP, YES AL SAUNDERS HAS MADE TERRIBLE PLAY CALLS, YES THE DEFENSE WAS HORRIBLE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON, AND YES THE TEAM HAS RESPONDED WELL TO HASLETT a direct contrast from SCOTT LINEHAN. BUT WHERE IS THE HIGHEST PAID RAM OF ALL TIME IN THIS? WHAT RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD HE OWN? Do you not agree that he deserves some blame? So then why the opposition?

    For over a year now, all that was written here in this forum was how bad Linehan, the O-line, the WRs, the Rbs, the Defense, and the Special Teams suck, but not even a slight mention of Marc Bulger and the part he played in this debacle, and frankly I got tired of it.

    I realize the shortcomings of every aspect of this team as well as anybody else. Nobody has to point that out to me. Difference is, I point things out from more of a realistic point of view rather than an eternal optimist point of view. Some can get with that and some can't, but such is life.

    I take pride in pulling no punches from anybody's performance, least of all a starting QB who makes more money than any Ram that's ever suited up.

    Just by virtue of his position, I believe he needs to be held accountable, then factor in the greatest contract in Rams football history, and I believe it is irresponsible not to.

    As for why I haven't recently included other players, simple. I see no reason for me to rehash all the negatives spewed in everybody else's direction. Several posters have already taken care of that. Therefore, no need to waste my time.

    My focus is on the one who inexplicably gets a free ride every week. And that my friend, was Marc Bulger.

    Love it or hate it.
    Last edited by Fortuninerhater; -10-27-2008 at 09:56 PM.

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    Talking Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    Nah...I'm pretty sure it was all on him!

    I didn't couch my argument in terms of Bulger's successes, but as a perennial pro bowler. There are those that are considered perennial pro bowl quarterbacks because they lead their team to wins that they wouldn't have made if it weren't for their leadership or great play. In other words, they make the players around them better. I don't see Bulger having done that, but the opposite to be true. Bulger is very much dependent on the talent around him.
    Well said. Perfect.!

  5. #35
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I doubt you'll get anyone in a Ram uniform to agree with you about McNabb.
    I don't know any of them personally, but the Eagles did lose to Dallas and Washington (who we beat under Haslett) and to the Bears. Therefore, I think McNabb is not worth the money he is being paid.

    Brett Favre had more TD passes in one game than Bulger has this season.
    Yes quite impressive against the Chargers who just happened to lose their first three games.

    Tony Romo is a much better QB than Marc Bulger if for no other reason than he can make plays with his feet. With their arms, I'll call it a wash and that's giving Bulger the benefit of the doubt.
    How many playoff games has Tony Romo won?

    Even at this early stage, Jay Cutler is no worse than a wash with Marc Bulger. And with his youth, he gets the nod between the two.
    That is your opinion and I might add, an interesting concept. Just because a rookie "looks" better early on in his career, is he better? That leaves a lot of quarterbacks who started off slow and went on to be great, out of the picture doesn't it?

    David Garrard is one of the toughest, and more under rated QBs in the league. I invite you to watch him play sometime and then give me your assessment.
    I will take you up on that. I have not watched a Jag's game, mostly because of lack of interest, but I will give him a look.

    Although I do refer back to my original comment and how he has ridden the bench the first five of his seven years. Meaning he is a whole lot "fresher" than a much brutalized Marc Bulger.

    I'll be happy to give you a few more though since none of those five impressed you. At this point I'd have to rank Kurt Warner ahead of him, Trent Edwards outplayed Marc a few weeks ago, Matt Ryan, even in his rookie campaign, has looked better than Marc Bulger has this season.
    Yes I did ask for five more and you gave me three. And two of the first five actually do impress me and the others may someday, but not yet. I do like the Manning's abilities.

    I would also totally agree that Kurt Warner is a great quarterback and should still be in a Rams uniform. I think he lost a few good years though because of Martz and the Rams organization and their inability to protect him. I too would say he is better because he won us a super bowl. Trent Green out played Bulger I guess for one game in my opinion because he too was fresh, but didn't we lose that game too? Therefore Trent Green is not worth the money we are paying him then because he lost. As far as Ryan goes, let's see how the Falcons end their season and we'll see. BUT, I will not base his career on their record alone. I would have to base it on things like their program, the opponents, the play calling and his heart. Not just wins and losses.

    I'll finish with this, you mentioned early on probably one of the best quarterbacks in history, to me anyway, Brett Farve. If you you look at just wins and losses I think you're missing the whole picture. Remember he has only one Super Bowl win and from what I can tell, only a 58% regular season win record. Was he worth the money he has been paid? I think so.
    "The disappointment of losing is huge!"

    Jack Youngblood

  6. #36
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Well, I can only speak to what I see and if I see holt drop a catchable ball then yes he sucks on that play. Holt was mentioned in the context as a player to blame rather than or as much as bulger for mistakes that bulger made during the game. At least that is the way I took it. Perhaps I misunderstood? And BTW I did mention that pisa was crap on the pats go ahead TD. For God's sake he has been an NFL LB for how many years now? Yet he still can't cover a RB out of the backfield on a simple pass play. This to go along with his often suspect tackling. OMG, the guy is far too often pathetic beyond belief.

    I'm not the person starting threads about whether bulger is worth his contract. So, I'm not sure why you are going after me for this except possibly to justify your claim or agreement that holt is now crap. Nick, if you know something let us know. I can only speak to the angles I am afforded with the telecast. They generally don't key on receivers route running and I don't have the film to study otherwise. All I see is holt dropping passes now and then. Yet he has done this every year. Has he regressed to the point that he can no longer run an effective route? I don't know this to be true, if you do then please let us and the coaches know so they can get him out of the lineup.

    Is holt the #1 receiver? What exactly does that mean anyways? I highly doubt that he is the #1 option on every passing play. I'm reasonably sure Al does not instruct bulger to look for holt first on every pass play before he looks for anyone else because holt is the, quote, #1 receiver. So, assuming that holt is not the first option or read on every pass play does bulger progress through his options enough to find holt if he were say the 2nd option? Once again I'm not certain of the answer, I can only speculate as to the answer based on the camera angles of the telecast. Please Nick, if you know something then just let it out. The brow beating simply for the sake of whatever reason serves very little purpose and gets old. Thanks :-)



    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    No one mentioned Holt "as an excuse." But I thought the reason Bulger critics continue to hammer on him is because they feel obligated to hold people responsible for their play, no?

    Does that somehow not apply to Torry Holt as well? Do you not think Torry Holt should be held responsible for what was a rather poor game in Washington and virtually being a non-factor against Dallas and New England? This is Torry "Big Game" Holt, a guy who has consistently been a top receiver in this league. Is anyone starting threads asking if Holt is worth his big contract? I must have missed all of those topics.

    You ask if Bulger ever progresses through his reads enough to find Holt. Holt is supposed to be this team's #1 receiver. How many progressions do you think a QB typically makes before getting to his #1 receiver?

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    IMO, Bulger is a good QB but he is gunshy. Who can blame him. I wouldnt step into all my throws if I get hit on a regular basis like him, but he is effective when he does step into it. The less he gets sacked, the more confidence he'll gain. The more confidence he gains, the more we win.

  8. #38
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    So much to respond to, so little time. Thankfully I didn't get called in to work today.



    What an important way to start, and something that deserved to be highlighted.

    The claim that you'll see from many Bulger critics - and of course it's repeated in this thread - is that somehow there are fans out there who don't want to hold him accountable for anything, that apparently think he's playing perfect football. Not only do such fans not exist, but I suspect those making such claims know as much.

    It's a rather disappointing and distracting argument from the real debate - how much responsibility falls on the shoulders of one player. No one is saying Bulger is playing perfect football, no one thinks he doesn't have areas where he can improve, no one thinks he's not making mistakes out there. NO ONE. Emphasis added with the hopes that it'll finally get through. Because the sooner people can acknowledge this basic premise, the sooner we can actually all have an honest debate about this topic.



    Great point. People like to bring up Jay Cutler or the Mannings or Drew Brees as some of today's best quarterbacks in the NFL. Does anyone realize how many times those guys get sacked compared to Bulger?

    Eli has been sacked this year on average once every 37 pass attempts. His brother Petyon, who's having a down year by the way? Once every 24 attempts on average. Drew Brees? Once per 43 pass attempts. The young gun Jay Cutler? Sacked on average once every 63.5 pass attempts! 63!!!!

    What's Bulger's number? Once every 7.5 attempts.

    It's a pathetic difference. And no, it's not all on the offensive line. But you're kidding yourself if a large part of it isn't.



    Great post, Chris!



    No one mentioned Holt "as an excuse." But I thought the reason Bulger critics continue to hammer on him is because they feel obligated to hold people responsible for their play, no?

    Does that somehow not apply to Torry Holt as well? Do you not think Torry Holt should be held responsible for what was a rather poor game in Washington and virtually being a non-factor against Dallas and New England? This is Torry "Big Game" Holt, a guy who has consistently been a top receiver in this league. Is anyone starting threads asking if Holt is worth his big contract? I must have missed all of those topics.

    You ask if Bulger ever progresses through his reads enough to find Holt. Holt is supposed to be this team's #1 receiver. How many progressions do you think a QB typically makes before getting to his #1 receiver?



    I would contend most if not all Rams fans agree that Bulger can play better, though.



    What a great point, and what's interesting is that I recall at least three specific occasions in this game when Bulger did throw the ball away rather than take a sack or force it into coverage.

    What I think we have to consider is that, should Bulger draw the ball back and attempt to throw a ball away in some of those pressure situations, he risks getting it stripped and creating a turnover for the other team. Sometimes it's better to take a sack than expose the ball for a possible strip.

    Did anyone see the Georgia Tech/Clemson game from a week or so ago? The first score of the game was a Clemson WR reverse where the receiver pulled back to throw the ball rather than take a loss. He underthrew the pass into a field of GT players and it was returned for a touchdown. Sometimes when the protection breaks down, the best thing to do is to throw it away.

    But sometimes the best thing to do is to protect the ball and take a negative yardage play rather than risk a possible turnover. It's a fine line QBs have to walk, and it's one they have to make in a split second based on everything that's happening around them. Not from the comfort of their recliner or seat at the bar in front of the big screen. Not excusing it, just pointing out the circumstances.

    If Bulger is going to throw away passes when the protection breaks down, then we have to be willing to sacrifice plays like the one he made nine minutes into the Dallas game where he scrambled to the right after the pocket collapsed and found Holt crossing the field for 19 yards. If he throws that ball away, maybe we don't score on our second drive and Dallas gets the ball back with some momentum. Who knows?





    I'll let the contradiction speak for itself, but you left a couple big names off...

    Peyton Manning: 80.0
    Carson Palmer: 69.0
    Derek Anderson: 67.1
    Matt Hasselbeck: 57.7



    Did the rest of the team do everything to capitalize on those opportunities? If not, why is Marc being singled out for the offense's failures in that regard?





    I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements.

    Anyways, it strikes me as pretty special when our QB completes a career-long pass to our young rookie WR, because it means we've found a weapon that's capable of opening this offense up in a way we've been missing and desperately need.

    It seems simple, to me at least - point out the good and the bad. Expecting people to go out and make plays doesn't make it any less rewarding and noteworthy when they actually do it. Especially for a team with five wins over the last two seasons. Part of holding someone accountable for their actions means not only holding them responsible for their mistakes but also acknowledging when those actions result in success.





    No one is dismissing Bulger of any or all blame. GC even started his post by saying how we all recognize Bulger has shortcomings. Enough with the straw man arguments please - they bring nothing to the debate and serve no other purpose than to mischaracterize the other side into sounding unreasonable.



    No one is claiming it's always their fault. But Marc Bulger has been the most sacked QB in the NFL since 2003. I hope we can agree that the shortcomings on the offensive line throughout the years shoulder the majority of the blame for that stat.



    Yet Bulger has a better yards per carry average than Romo this season. Their career yards per carry average is not significantly different. Romo has a long rush this season of seven yards, Bulger has a long rush of nine yards. Recall that against Washington, Bulger had I believe a 13 yard run called back because of penalty.



    Interesting way of phrasing it, BRM. If Bulger's successes were the product of the talent around him rather than his play and leadership, wouldn't his failures also be a product of the talent around him?

    I'll answer that last one for BigRed. Not necessarily.

    To be continued....

  9. #39
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Here is the interesting thing about the talent around you or the qb making his team better. Arguably one of the best qb's of all time is looking rather ordinary. Shouldnt he still look great even though the talent around him may be lacking? I mean isnt that what everyone is saying here or does this rule only apply to Marc Bulger? I saw manning throw several bad balls tonight but I'm not about to say the guy has lost it or is rattled. Yet this is what is being asked of Bulger and he doesnt even get the protection that Manning got tonight. I mean if 26-41 for 223 2td's and 2 pics is great then fine. Sure I'm sure the arguement will be made that they played the super great Titans. I don't think they are that great to be honest with you so what is it. Why is Manning's play so ordinary? I'm just curious because it seems to me that Manning and Bulger are suffering from the same thing. The Colts are 3-4 and the Rams are 2-5. So why can't the great Manning lead his teams to more victories since he makes everyone around him better? I'll tell you why because this is a team game. TEAM PEOPLE, the qb can't win by himself. I wish Bulger had as much time to throw as Manning did tonight vs the Titans but he rarely does.

    By the way it cracks me up the people think Rogers,Ryan,Shaub,Edwards and Cutler are better than Bulger. Sure put those guys on this team and we would see how much better they are. I mean Edwards only has one more td pass than Bulger does for crying out loud on a better team. Well they did just lose to Miami. How about Kyle Orton is he better. His stats are better does that make him a better qb. Bulger is making mistakes, I'vs said it but he has not lost his touch. He needs time just like all qb's do. I can tell you one thing Bulger hasnt thrown 4 int's in one game this year like the great Rothloseburger did. It just seems to me no one sees the whole picture. These losses dont hang on one player they hang on the team. Do you think Colts fans are looking to replace Manning because he's struggling? 10 td's and 9 pics isnt your typical Manning. Bulger could step it up but this whole team could step it up especially the o-line. You can keep blaming Bulger all you want because he hasnt been getting blamed enough but untill the players around him especially in front of him decide to take their jobs seriously he will continue to struggle. Just one game with all the time in the world like Cassell got would shut a lot of you up.
    Just Fix It

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Well I've always hated Bulger, But the team is playing much better and Bulger got a big contract ,so he isn't going anywhere so what do ya do??????
    I still think that They have to draft a real QB in the draft. Not some joker from Yale or some Smoker from Mich st.. Bulger is just a filler. He won't take us to the next level unles the team is perfect.So in turn, Bulger is Kind of a Dilfer type now. Not at first , but now. Jackson is of the same veiw to me. Neither really make anything happen on their own. they are both great players only if they are surrounded by great. And that ain't happenin!!!!
    But here he is and becuase they spent to much on him , he will suck any chance of us getting a great QB to replace him. Kinda like how he took over for a better QB.........Go figure.
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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    Holt was mentioned in the context as a player to blame rather than or as much as bulger for mistakes that bulger made during the game. At least that is the way I took it. Perhaps I misunderstood?
    I dunno. If you can show me specifically the reference you're talking about, I'll have a look as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    And BTW I did mention that pisa was crap on the pats go ahead TD. For God's sake he has been an NFL LB for how many years now? Yet he still can't cover a RB out of the backfield on a simple pass play. This to go along with his often suspect tackling. OMG, the guy is far too often pathetic beyond belief.
    I agree to an extent. He seems to be very inconsistent. One game he'll really stand out and play well, and another he'll really stand out for, well, not playing so well. He's played in every game this season, so that's a plus. But a part of me wonders if we wouldn't be better by moving Witherspoon to the WILL position and finding a different MIKE linebacker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    I'm not the person starting threads about whether bulger is worth his contract. So, I'm not sure why you are going after me for this except possibly to justify your claim or agreement that holt is now crap.
    I don't think I claimed you were the one starting these threads. But your post did seem to imply the belief that the criticisms of Holt were unjustified, since you characterized them as a creative excuse on Bulger's behalf. Maybe I misunderstood, but that's how it came across to me. Therefore I wanted to ask some questions to determine your thoughts about Holt's play.

    My own opinion is that his play has clearly diminished from where it was in previous seasons. That's not to say that he's crap, but what I do know is that he had a pretty poor game against the Redskins and overall has not been the factor he has been in the past. Some of that I assume is because of the attention he receives, but I think some of it is also because of diminishing skill.

    I think we can see his inability to gain separation in numerous games this season. If teams begin to fear Avery's vertical ability and back off of Holt, I'm honestly not sure how well he'll be able to take advantage of it at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    Is holt the #1 receiver?
    I doubt anyone knows for sure but I would think most believe he is the top guy on the depth chart, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    I highly doubt that he is the #1 option on every passing play.
    Probably not, but he likely is the #1 option on at least some of them. However, by questioning whether Bulger ever progresses through his reads enough to find Holt, you imply that Holt is never the first option. We can likely agree that isn't the case, and that was my obviously-not-properly-explained point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    So, assuming that holt is not the first option or read on every pass play does bulger progress through his options enough to find holt if he were say the 2nd option?
    That's hard to say without going back and analyzing every passing play thus far this season. But given that Holt leads the team in receptions and would have had more if not for the drops, I would wager that Bulger has done at least an adequate job finding him whether he's the first option or a latter one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    Please Nick, if you know something then just let it out. The brow beating simply for the sake of whatever reason serves very little purpose and gets old. Thanks :-)
    Your objection to what you characterize as brow beating rings rather hollow when you precede it with pointless sarcastic snipes, but I'll take it into consideration nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    I'll answer that last one for BigRed. Not necessarily.
    I don't see how fans can have this both way. If you're going to credit the surrounding talent for Bulger's success, then you'd also have to credit the surrounding talent for Bulger's failure. The reality of the situation is that it's likely a combination of himself and his surrounding talent both for his successes and failures, but that didn't seem to be what BRM suggested.

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I dunno. If you can show me specifically the reference you're talking about, I'll have a look as well.



    I agree to an extent. He seems to be very inconsistent. One game he'll really stand out and play well, and another he'll really stand out for, well, not playing so well. He's played in every game this season, so that's a plus. But a part of me wonders if we wouldn't be better by moving Witherspoon to the WILL position and finding a different MIKE linebacker.



    I don't think I claimed you were the one starting these threads. But your post did seem to imply the belief that the criticisms of Holt were unjustified, since you characterized them as a creative excuse on Bulger's behalf. Maybe I misunderstood, but that's how it came across to me. Therefore I wanted to ask some questions to determine your thoughts about Holt's play.

    My own opinion is that his play has clearly diminished from where it was in previous seasons. That's not to say that he's crap, but what I do know is that he had a pretty poor game against the Redskins and overall has not been the factor he has been in the past. Some of that I assume is because of the attention he receives, but I think some of it is also because of diminishing skill.

    I think we can see his inability to gain separation in numerous games this season. If teams begin to fear Avery's vertical ability and back off of Holt, I'm honestly not sure how well he'll be able to take advantage of it at this point.



    I doubt anyone knows for sure but I would think most believe he is the top guy on the depth chart, yes.



    Probably not, but he likely is the #1 option on at least some of them. However, by questioning whether Bulger ever progresses through his reads enough to find Holt, you imply that Holt is never the first option. We can likely agree that isn't the case, and that was my obviously-not-properly-explained point there.



    That's hard to say without going back and analyzing every passing play thus far this season. But given that Holt leads the team in receptions and would have had more if not for the drops, I would wager that Bulger has done at least an adequate job finding him whether he's the first option or a latter one.



    Your objection to what you characterize as brow beating rings rather hollow when you precede it with pointless sarcastic snipes, but I'll take it into consideration nonetheless.



    I don't see how fans can have this both way. If you're going to credit the surrounding talent for Bulger's success, then you'd also have to credit the surrounding talent for Bulger's failure. The reality of the situation is that it's likely a combination of himself and his surrounding talent both for his successes and failures, but that didn't seem to be what BRM suggested.

    Because it's not as simple as that. Some QBs like BigRed said have the ability to makes his cast better, and some don't. Therefore you can't simply use the same measuring stick on every QB.

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    That game was lost because of unbalanced referee's and our lack of taking the oppourtunites given us. Not by Bulger. Some players should have made the catches. Namely Fakir, there was play that should have been an interception, but he dropped.

    The Pats aren't a better team than the Rams, and posses less talent as the team stands right now minus Brady. The difference is they are a team used to winning so they don't make the mistakes, they capitalize off them. If we are able to retain our current coach, and build of the players we have at present we can soon become that team, that capitalizes of another teams mistake, and not make the mistakes we made as a team this past sunday against the Pats.

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Something else that steams me (and I've been wanting to address this): How come Bulger dosen't audible?

    Until a better answer comes along I'm gonna assume it's because the offense is busy managing the all too difficult snap count.

    It would be nice if we didn't have to take all those cheap ass time outs we could better use later in the game. And it's embarressing. The team looks high school and morover Bulger looks lost. Manoman.
    The break, don't bend offense.

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    Re: Name 10 qbs better than bulger

    Tony Romo is a much better QB than Marc Bulger if for no other reason than he can make plays with his feet.
    Yet Bulger has a better yards per carry average than Romo this season. Their career yards per carry average is not significantly different. Romo has a long rush this season of seven yards, Bulger has a long rush of nine yards. Recall that against
    Washington, Bulger had I believe a 13 yard run called back because of penalty.
    I just assumed this reply was a joke...Bulger more mobility than Romo comeon!

    I didn't couch my argument in terms of Bulger's successes, but as a perennial pro bowler. There are those that are considered perennial pro bowl quarterbacks because they lead their team to wins that they wouldn't have made if it weren't for their leadership or great play. In other words, they make the players around them better. I don't see Bulger having done that, but the opposite to be true. Bulger is very much dependent on the talent around him.


    yep! I tell ya Bulger is an average NFL Qb, which is really fricken good. Sorry, if some of you want him to be better than that, but he just is not.

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