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Thread: Offense Line

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    Offense Line

    I believe we have a premier line with 2 all-pro veterans Pace and Timmerman, 2 exciting prospects one in Barron as a huge all American first round draft pick in 05' and another in Richie Ignacio First-team all-Big 12 in his 2nd year from Nebraska. Richie is tenacious and young.

    This line should provide great protection for Bulger and open up holes for Steven Jackson. This offense WILL SCORE!!!

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    Re: Offense Line

    Who is Richie Ignacio?

    I have my doubts about the interior line. I think our OL is only adequate. Timmerman and McCollum are aging and Incognito is still a rookie who will have growing pains.

  3. #3
    DaddoRam Guest

    Re: Offense Line

    Hey, HEY! Did I detect someone po-mouthing my guy?
    Yeah, the Donut Brothers are a bit more experienced than some raw rookie, but that's hardly a problem. You see linemen going longer than just about anyone (except kickers) we've had plenty of very very good offensive linemen in late 30s and 40, 41 even. Adam's skill and experience more than make up for a little slowing in 40 times (how often does a lineman have to run 40 yards?) This is still a rock on our offensive line and a plenty good guard. Same goes for Brother Andy, a true captain at the center position who makes line calls, delivers to the QB and blocks his assignments as well as anyone on the Rams roster or anyone we could pick up at this point.
    These guys aren't Running Backs, the fact that they're well into their 30s isn't nearly the worry some make it out to be. Long live the Donut Brothers!

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    Re: Offense Line

    Quote Originally Posted by LA Rammer View Post
    I believe we have a premier line
    Couldn't disagree more. First of all, when was the last time Adam Timmerman played at an all-pro level? Furthermore, even when you have two good prospects in Barron and Incognito, the line isn't great until they're playing at a great level. I think both are still going through some significant growing pains. I think this line is average at best, and we definitely need to concentrate on finding more help for the center and right guard positions either on our own roster or next spring in free agency or the draft.
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    Re: Offense Line

    Quote Originally Posted by DaddoRam View Post
    Hey, HEY! Did I detect someone po-mouthing my guy?
    Yeah, the Donut Brothers are a bit more experienced than some raw rookie, but that's hardly a problem. You see linemen going longer than just about anyone (except kickers) we've had plenty of very very good offensive linemen in late 30s and 40, 41 even. Adam's skill and experience more than make up for a little slowing in 40 times (how often does a lineman have to run 40 yards?) This is still a rock on our offensive line and a plenty good guard. Same goes for Brother Andy, a true captain at the center position who makes line calls, delivers to the QB and blocks his assignments as well as anyone on the Rams roster or anyone we could pick up at this point.
    These guys aren't Running Backs, the fact that they're well into their 30s isn't nearly the worry some make it out to be. Long live the Donut Brothers!
    One of the beauties of this country is that everyone is allowed their opinion. However, I couldn't disagree more with yours.

    Our interior, including the Donut Brothers has been a weak-spot for three years now. Neither McCollum nor Timmerman would even start on most lines. Timmerman's been banged up, and nowhere near a top-notch guard in years, and even at his best McCollum is adequate at best.

    From our starting 5, they easily rank #4 and #5. If we don't upgrade them, and soon, Bulger and Jackson will both find themselves on the shelf.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Offense Line

    Actually, I disagree.

    I feel that the line is more than adequate. We have BIG O on the end. Barron on the other end who improve each and every week. The Donut Brothers are experience and can still play at a high level. Richie was a steal in the 3rd round. Very sound unit . Good combination of experience and youth. The only missing piece is Terrell I hope he recovers and add some depth for us next year.

    I do not get why every year the O line is a big debate. In case some of you nay sayers did not know the Rams have been addressing the line.

    I believe the Rams spent several draft picks on line men the last few years. Last year we used are #1 pick...

    Do we need to spend are #1 for every position on the line for the next 5 years will that address the so called problem?????

    How about avoid free agency and develop some of the guys we have????
    Last edited by CRAZYHORNS; -09-07-2006 at 12:45 PM.

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    Re: Offense Line

    No way to tell how the line will play until they actually, you know.. do.

    On paper it looks good.

    The DB are old and need to be replaced but they will be fine for this season.

  8. #8
    Drew4EverRams Guest

    Re: Offense Line

    ive been a pretty loyal fan of timmerman since he joined us from the packers and whilst i still think he has a role to play for us the amount of times bulger has been sacked/hurried/hit etc.. and the lack of lanes being opened for jackson etc....doesnt really point to us having an elite line anymore and although its certainly not all down to timmerman he has to take part of the blame,andy aint so much of a problem and i believe he could play on for a few more years due to the limited physical requirements of the centre position!
    although barron was a great pick up for the future,having him at RT means although we strong at pass protection on the edges,we dont have a T that can smash open the lanes for SJ like elite or even good O-lines have!

    in the inside incognito is a better lane opening option than dishman,loverne,terrell and a banged up nutten etc.... and maybe just maybe timmerman`s game may be re-ignited with better back up!


    final thoughts-our o-line is in best shape its been in since 2001 but still needs upgrading!

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    Re: Offense Line

    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZYHORNS
    I do not get why every year the O line is a big debate. In case some of you nay sayers did not know the Rams have been addressing the line.
    Since the line became a major concern during the 2002 season, the Rams have spent 7 of their 39 total picks on the line (couting drafts from '03-'06). That's 18% of our picks on what makes up at least three different starting positions for our offense - one could make the case that left tackles and guards are different from right tackles and guards thus making five different positions, but I won't go that far.

    Of those seven linemen, five were day two picks. Four of those five were drafted in the sixth and seventh rounds. Two of the seven drafted linemen are starting. One starter is a tackle, the only tackle we've drafted in four years. The other six linemen were guards. One of those six - Incognito - is starting. The other five, again four of which are 6th and 7th rounders, are not. In fact, two of those five aren't even on our team. One of them started last season but showed up out of shape this year.

    I don't consider two first day picks and five second day picks in four years to be a serious attempt by the Rams to shore up their offensive line, especially when four of the five second-day picks were sixth/seventh rounders.

    Is it a surprise that when the Rams actually did invest first and third round picks in Barron and Incognito, they in return received... *gasp!*... guys who would go on to start for them this season?

    Outside of Barron and Richie, what else do we have? We have Terrell, who was mediocre in his rookie year and showed up this season out of shape. He's now on IR and, if you believe some reports, is not exactly on great terms with the Rams due to the handling of his injury.

    We have Setterstrom who, based on his getting time with the first unit in camp, showed some flashes. But is he a legit NFL starter? Who knows! Barring significant injury to one of our guards, Setterstrom won't see much if any time this year so we won't know much more about him in March/April than we do now. Furthermore, you don't pass up on a very good first day line prospect because you have Mark Setterstrom.

    Finally, even if you assume we're fine for the future at guard despite absolutely no real proof to support that claim, what do we have at center? We have an aging McCollum and Larry Turner behind him. Conceivably, absolutely no plan for the future at center, which is one of the reasons I think the Rams actually do need to look at spending a first-day pick on a center prospect. Names I would keep an eye on are Kyle Young (Fresno State), Dan Mozes (WVU), and Leroy Harris (NC State).

    No one is expecting the team to go out and spend all #1 picks on every line position, nor do I believe anyone ever said they should so I don't know why you needed to exaggerate that claim. But they have to do better than thinking they can scrape servicable guys from the bottom of the barrel.


    Quote Originally Posted by TNRamFan23
    No way to tell how the line will play until they actually, you know.. do.
    Actually, since we're returning 80% of last year's starting line, I think we can make a reasonable guess as to how they might perform.
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    Re: Offense Line

    The Donut Brothers are experience and can still play at a high level.
    You're welcome to your opinion, but I just don't see how the Donut Brothers play over the past couple of years can be considered a high level.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: Offense Line

    Wow all of these opinions. All of you are wrong. There is no way to tell how a team will play until they hit the playing field. This first game will tell us something but not the whole story. We wont really know that until week 4. But anyways with a new coach and a new philosiphy things are much different. So to both sides we'll soon see who's right. I choose to take the glass if half full approach.

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    Re: Offense Line

    Quote Originally Posted by jjigga3000 View Post
    Wow all of these opinions. All of you are wrong. There is no way to tell how a team will play until they hit the playing field. This first game will tell us something but not the whole story. We wont really know that until week 4. But anyways with a new coach and a new philosiphy things are much different. So to both sides we'll soon see who's right. I choose to take the glass if half full approach.
    Well if everyone before you is wrong, TNRamFan23 said the exact same thing you did, but according to you he's wrong, so that makes you wrong also. :x

    Back to reality, Pace and Barron will be fine, but the interior is a big concern for us.
    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce
    Kudos to Jared Cook for saying what needed to be said about being outplayed and outcoached vs the Cards.

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    Re: Offense Line

    Glass at half-full is good for me too, 3000! Perfect analogy for Rams OL at this point.

    We're THREE days from game 1. How can we possibly surmise the quality level and performance punch of our OL in this 'results oriented' mentality of today?

    TODAY, literally, today we can discuss its performance potential. And RIGHT NOW ... I agree with Crazyhorns, "I feel that the line is more than adequate."


    PACE - INCOGNITO - McCOLLUM - TIMMERMAN - BARRON


    Yes, I also agree with DaddoRam in that, despite that age and old-new-old-new injuries are an almost-detrimental factor lingering on Timmerman and McCollum, they are still GRUNTS, GOOD'OL GRUNTS that know the game very, very well, "been there / done that", and are just great to have as reliable veterans whom many younger OL would definitely choose to go to war with. Big O Pace is right there too in terms of durability and veteran worth.

    Incognito will be hopping mad all season long for that chop penalty called against him in preseason (thanks are due to the official for that). But I see Richie as an intelligent, intense and aggressive young lineman looking to make a mark from year one. He's been patient long enough!

    Setterstom still maintains a very positive value based on training camp / preseason. I want to say, an above average potential for a Ramrookie.

    Barron. The Young Barron. Why can we not expect for this year to be one of his best as a Pro: new coaches, new plans for our offense; new opportunity. Prove your RamRoyalty, young man! Prove the hype and ramblings of your rookie promises to be true (except for missing flights at the airport and being late for camp).

    Steussie. Another good grunt that could very well be the new addition to the Rams Doughnut Brothers.

    Adam Goldberg seems to be coming in with better than usual inertia. Big man to play guard, apparently ready to play tackle. Just turned twenty-six last month. "When I was 26, it was a very good year. It was a very good year..." F. Sinatra

    True, we need a strong spare at center. Maybe Incognito will do for now, if necessary, while Setterstrom would fill in the gap at LG.

    Curious Q: if Terrell's hand should heal say, by late November, early December, could he come back to vindicate himself and contribute to the team?


    SHOWTIME

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    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You're welcome to your opinion, but I just don't see how the Donut Brothers play over the past couple of years can be considered a high level.
    Agreed, and the proof is in the pudding.

    Look at the sack totals - Marc Bulger in eight games was sacked as much as Tom Brady was in double the games. He was sacked more than Hasselbeck, Favre, Harrington. More than McNair, Palmer, etc etc. Part of it's scheme, but part of it is also this line as well. And we've been having protection problems at multiple positions dating back a couple of seasons now.

    Look at the inability to produce a consistently productive running game. Steven Jackson was the Rams' first 1000 yard rusher since 2001, and he did it with only a modest average. Yes, he takes his share of responsibility for his own mistakes, but the line needs to take their's as well. Jackson led the league in stuffed runs both because of his own indecision but also because often times defenders were able to penetrate into the backfield. Jackson is the kind of back that needs to build up steam, yet how often does our line really give him that kind of room to operate? Not as often as you'd like, based on what I've seen. And the mini-preview we got in the preseason and in some camp reports didn't really suggest much of a turnaround.

    It just does not seem to me like the line is getting the job done. Timmerman and McCollum may be experienced, but they're getting older with every season, which means they're likely losing speed, losing mobility, and losing strength and explosiveness coming out of their stance. Incognito is promising, but last I checked he hasn't seen regular season action, and people seem to be putting the cart before the horse by proclaiming his talent. He certainly has the potential, but let's see it on the field before listing him as one of the reasons our line is more than adequate.

    Obviously the real proof is going to be this weekend and the games to come. But based on the evidence I have in front of me right now, I just don't see it. This is an average line that needs a youth movement on the interior, and needs its two young starters to play as much mistake-free football as they can if we want to be successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    Curious Q: if Terrell's hand should heal say, by late November, early December, could he come back to vindicate himself and contribute to the team?
    He's on IR, so he's done.
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    Re: Offense Line

    Hmm, was not aware that once on IR, IR it is for the rest of the yr. Thanks Nick.

    On the other hand (not Terrell's)...

    "...People seem to be putting the cart before the horse by proclaiming [Incognito's] talent. --Nick"
    Then I suppose the same could be said when referring to our OL's poor performances of the PAST and claim that we ... 'seem to be putting the HORSE A-F-T-E-R and BEHIND THE CART!' by pointing to our faults!

    What is the poor pony to do? Pull the cart in reverse to keep checking how many times our QB was sacked?

    I think that every single one of our OL veterans will openly admit the overall failure to pass and/or run block. Marc Bulger and Stephen Jackson can rightfully attest to that. THAT WAS THEN, 2005 AND PRIOR. There was a different coaching staff, player lineup, playbook, etc. x3.

    It's a whole new ball game. At least, I hope it will be!

    EXPECTATIONS are about what we look foward to with what we have, not with what we had, despite the tempting relevance of all those stats and results of yesterday. They may be true, but DO NOT reflect the HOPE, POSITIVE OUTLOOK and WORK for this year's OL season.

    Sure, the proof is in the pudding! But the pudding won't be ready until Sunday. For NOW, TODAY, the proof is in the pushing forward with the right attitude of our Ram veterans, in this case the men at the battle front, scars, mistakes and all.

    :r WE'LL SEE. :r

    That's THE ONLY CERTAINTY I LOOK FOWARD TO, a "FACT FOR THE FUTURE!".

    SHOWTIME -- OL INCLUDED!
    Last edited by RealRam; -09-07-2006 at 10:53 PM.

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