Offense Line

[Nick]

Then I suppose the same could be said when referring to our OL's poor performances of the PAST

Not really. People draw conclusions on future events based on the past all the time. But we know absolutely nothing about how Incognito will play at the next level. IMO, it's two vastly different situations.

They may be true, but DO NOT reflect the HOPE, POSITIVE OUTLOOK and WORK for this year's OL season.

Okay, so I'm not expressing an exceptionally positive outlook about the line. When did that become a crime? I hope they do well, but realistically I suspect they'll be average and inconsistent. I hope they go above and beyond my expectations, but I'm not going to say they're good because I want them to be good. I'll say they're good when I actually think they're good.

Sure, the proof is in the pudding! But the pudding won't be ready until Sunday.

If that's your stance, then you shouldn't be able to make a judgement on the line either. Yet you do by claiming you feel the line is more than adequate. If I can't make a judgement on the line since I haven't seen them this season, how can others?

[RealRam]

Oh, for crying out loud, NICK!

We can estimate how our veterans will play because of their NFL experience BUT we cannot foresee how a rookie, even with a name like Incognito, will do because, according to you, "...we know absolutely nothing about how [he] will play at the next level"???

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING???

Give me a break! Just how, then, are rookies evaluated if they have never been seen playing "at the next level"?!? Are you kidding me?

No, I don't think you are.

The NFL has been around for many years now and often there is a GREATER EXPECTATION of a given rookie, precisely because of his collegiate performance of one, two or four years, than that of a veteran, even if there are stats to support the name and reputation of the latter.

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People draw conclusions on future events based on the past all the time. --Nick

Now there's a maxim. And I reiterate, that includes rookies.

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Yes, I'm saying, along with Crazyhorns, that our OL is more than adequate given, of course (and obviously), that we are contemplating WHAT WE HAVE b-e-f-o-r-e the first game takes place, that is, WHAT HAS BEEN PREPARED in the offseason, Draft, TC, preason, etc.

Based on said preparations, TODAY I feel good, optimistic and positive about the Rams 2006 OL. Got it?

Like you, I too hope that our OL will go above and beyond my expectations -- the difference being that mine are set a little higher already, thus believing that our OL is already better or, as stated, more than adequate, when compared to last year's.

Unlike you, I say they're good because I already think they're good. And not because I "want" them to be good either, BTW.


Enough. I won't get into making any puddings to try to prove anything else. I just hope that the entire team is PUMPED UP TO PROVE TO THEMSELVES, firstly, that this is going to be a great season!!!

Beginning Sept. 10 at home!

GO RAMS!!! SHOWTIME -- OL INCLUDED!

PACE - INCOGNITO - McCOLLUM - TIMMERMAN - BARRON

[Nick]

Just how, then, are rookies evaluated if they have never been seen playing "at the next level"?!? Are you kidding me?

You do realize that playing "at the next level" means playing in the NFL, right? So clearly no rookie would have played at the next level coming into the league. How scouts think rookies will make the transition to the next level is a big part in their evaluation, but rookies don't play at the next level until they're on an NFL field.

That being said, my contention is that we're returning 80% of last year's line, so we have a fairly good idea of what to expect from them because, after all, we saw them play quite a bit. We've seen Pace, McCollum, and Timmerman for years now. I don't think any of them will surprise us in terms of how they play - Pace will be at his all-pro form, and the Donut Brothers will be solid at times and disappointing at other times. Barron is growing but how much, we don't know. He looked solid last year in his first few contests but seemed to struggle mentally as the season went on, accumulating numerous penalties. Now he's adjusting to a new style of blocking, and I don't think that kind of change should be underestimated on a two year pro who is likely still adjusting to his position.

However, like it or not, Richie Incognito has not played one single regular season NFL game. Do we know how he could play at the next level? Sure. Do we know how he will play? Not at all, and that was my point. While we have a general idea of what to expect from Pace, Timmerman, McCollum, and even to a certain degree Barron based on past NFL performance, we have no NFL work to draw any conclusions about Richie. What he did in college was not only quite a while ago but against inferior competition. It's a big step to the NFL, and until we see him in a professional game that means something, he's one big question mark, IMO.

Now there's a maxim. And I reiterate, that includes rookies.

Wait, what? Just a minute ago you were telling me that the past is the past and this is a new line. Now you're agreeing with me that you can draw conclusions based on the past?

I really don't know what your position is at this point. It would seem you're contending that while I can't draw conclusions about this year's line based on last year's performance, you're more than able to draw conclusions about Incognito based on his previous performances in college.

To me, that makes literally no sense at all. But perhaps I've not understood your position adequately.

Unlike you, I say they're good because I already think they're good.

Then we can agree to disagree, because when it comes to the performance of this offensive line, I'm in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode. Year after year we've seen inconsistent if not simply poor line play. We made only one change to the starting line-up. I'm not convinced at this point that that, combined with a scheme change, is going to be enough to suddenly transform this line. Maybe they'll prove me wrong. In fact, hopefully they do. But until I see it, I'm skeptical.

[RealRam]

As I said, Nick, enough already. :x

I think you're going into a hair-splitter mode to desperately try to prove yourself right and justify your lingo -- including the so-called "NEXT LEVEL" concept!

What a weak way to debate, particularly regarding the reality as well as the expectations of one's own team / OL!

[Nick]

I think you're going into a hair-splitter mode to desperately try to prove yourself right and justify your lingo -- including the so-called "NEXT LEVEL" concept!

No, what I'm doing is trying to understand your logic on the offensive line and determine how it makes sense to draw conclusions on Incognito based on past college play but not on the rest of the line based on last year. That doesn't make sense to me, yet you seem unwilling to explain it, so I'm left puzzled.

Furthermore, playing "at the next level" is not my lingo, but a rather common phrase used particularly in rookie scouting when wondering how their college production and skill will translate to the NFL. I don't see how it's fair to criticize me for talking about and elaborating on that phrase when I'm merely responding to the questions you asked.

When I wrote my response, I elaborated on my opinion not to prove myself right (a futile task on a message board where most people's minds are already made up), but so you could understand how I arrived at my opinion. That's what I was hoping you would do, so I could better understand your position as well. If you consider that a weak way to debate, well, you're entitled to that opinion.

As I said at the bottom of my response, we can simply agree to disagree about the state of the line. We both have differing opinions, yet both hope for a good performance on Sunday. Hopefully, neither of us are disappointed.

[RealRam]

"No, what I'm doing is trying to understand your logic..." // "...Yet you seem unwilling to explain it..." --Nicj

Sure you are. // Right.

'Tell you what I understand.

Here I see that very typical and old, old case of debate / dialogue where the point in question progressively fades in direct proportion to the increase in personal interest 'to be right' and thus, to "win" the argument. Or, as the cliché goes, the end justifies the means.

That, Nick, I am positive you understand.

As for my explaining any further, no thanks. I already did.

When I wrote my response, I elaborated on my opinion not to prove myself right (a futile task on a message board where most people's minds are already made up), but so you could understand how I arrived at my opinion. That's what I was hoping you would do, so I could better understand your position as well. If you consider that a weak way to debate, well, you're entitled to that opinion. --Nick

A convenient coincidence, ey?


Nick, thanks for your time and willingness to share, to ... "elaborate". But please, please, could we elaborate no more? It would be to no avail. I say again, further attempt to explain -- from me, anyway -- would be of no consequence to the main topic.

Season opener at home. Best wishes to the Rams OL and entire team. :r

[jjigga3000]

All I gotta say is Go Rams, and enjoy the ride this season fellas. I think we will be fine. A good dose of running always gets a line going, and confident. If Linehan sticks to his plan. We'll be fine. If he starts going pass Happy like Fartz, then we'll be in for another long season. That being said

ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HUbison]

I still don't see how McCollum and Timmerman can be considered top-level. Last year, Jackson averaged 5.1 on the left side and 3.4 on the right. McC and Timm gave up a combined 11 sacks. A top level C/RG tandem shouldn't give up more than 5 or 6. In fact, Timmerman led the team in sacks allowed with 7.5. When a Guard (as opposed to a OT) leads the team in sacks allowed, it's time for a change.

Hopefully, I'm wrong. I want to be wrong.

Maybe they will find some kind of fountain of youth, or magically unlock the secret to being prime players in their mid-to-late 30's, but I'm not going to bet the farm on it.

Pace staying healthy, Incognito being for real, Barron cutting down on his false starts.......these are all concepts I can feel confident about.

McCollum and Timmerman ever again resembling adequate interior lineman, I can't feel confident..............but again, I want to be wrong.

[RealRam]

Let's go for it, 3000! :r

Hopefully we'll push for a strong, balanced performance from the OL.

Coaches Paul Boudreau, Greg Olson, Scott Linehan and company ...

SHOWTIME -- GO RAMS!

[LMU93]

double post

[LMU93]

I think we have among the best OT tandems in the league. Expect Barron to take a big step forward this year. Incognito should progress as the season goes and become a solid starter. He'll make some mistakes early on, though. McCollum is what he's always been- solid but unspectacular. He'll do the job for one more year.

Timmerman is the weak link IMO. He's been a great player for the Rams for 7 years but his age and injuries have caught up with him. He should be starting right now and early on may be OK. But I'd be surprised if he's still starting in mid-November. My guess is Setterstrom or Goldberg is starting by then.

This is a good OL with the potential to become much better by late season, should Incognito develop steadily. The good part is we return four starters from last year and the 5th starter has been with the first team since day one of camp. So cohesion should develop. The bad part is we'll have to deal with some growing pains from Incognito, and Timmerman will break down and not be able to move around or move people the way he used to. Plus blocking by the TEs (very important) is going to be spotty early in the season.

[theodus69]

And Yes, Nick will go beyond the call of duty to get his point across, but that is just the fight in the young man and I'm glad he's in our company! Anyway, i think we have a good line, but I saw the weakness' in Mac & Timmy in pre-season but that could be rust. The first game will tell.:r Casterate the Ponies!!!!!!!!!!!!:x