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Thread: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Here's the problem I see with RealRam's (and others) argument...

    You profess to have a problem with Michael Sam because of his "sin."

    Under Christian doctrine, I am guilty of the sin of non-belief. I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, I don't believe he was the Messiah, and I don't believe he "died for our sins." (none of this should be a surprise, as I am Jewish)

    So how can you reject Michael Sam, and accept me at the same time? (or, if you don't want to make this about me, how about Carroll Rosenbloom - the owner of the Rams when many of us became fans - who was also Jewish)

    The only honest and logical answer is that that you are making qualitative distinctions between different types of "sins."

    Who gave you that right?

    Perhaps you can see where I'm going with this. I feel that it is my obligation to speak out for anyone who is being targeted because of who they are. Indeed, its what I do for a living. The reason for this is best described by this quote, which may be familiar to many of you, and is attributed to Martin Niemoller, a Protestant pastor who spent 7 years in a Nazi concentration camp:

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -05-19-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Sin is sin, everyone sins and my particular house is constructed from a material that started life out as sand. I prefer to keep my object throwing to a minimum whenever possible.

    I have no problem with Michael Sam. I do think it's unfortunate that he thought he would be able to control the story.
    "I've been saving the Universe for over a thousand years. I figure it owes me just this once."

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AV
    The only honest and logical answer is that that you are making qualitative distinctions between different types of "sins."

    Who gave you that right?
    No one. Which is why I've said from the beginning of this discussion that there is NO difference in sin. You've got yours; I've got mine. The matter of sin and the hopeful forgiveness of sin is between an individual and God. Not an individual and another individual.

    And that's why I have no business holding one man's sin (whatever it may be) as a reason to disassociate him. It's ultimately not my business. I've got my own eye-beam to deal with.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Here's the problem I see with RealRam's (and others) argument...

    You profess to have a problem with Michael Sam because of his "sin."

    Under Christian doctrine, I am guilty of the sin of non-belief. I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, I don't believe he was the Messiah, and I don't believe he "died for our sins." (none of this should be a surprise, as I am Jewish)

    So how can you reject Michael Sam, and accept me at the same time? (or, if you don't want to make this about me, how about Carroll Rosenbloom - the owner of the Rams when many of us became fans - who was also Jewish)

    [...]The only honest and logical answer is that that you are making qualitative distinctions between different types of "sins."
    Seems your conclusion is much too hasty or weak.

    I've seen some posts where the issue of 'accepting / rejecting' a person is focused mainly on the lifestyle, mentality, philosophy of the individual -- say for example MSam -- and NOT the person.

    That you think "I reject YOU" because you're Jewish is absolutely, thoroughly and flat out wronnng.

    Besides, you are the Moderator Emeritus; can't reject you, just can't.


    EDIT: As neither of the Christian men of the NFL (please see post #282) would reject you because of your Jewish formation. No siree.
    Last edited by RealRam; -05-21-2014 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Tyop, NFL Christian men

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    Seems your conclusion is much to hasty or weak.

    I've seen some posts where the issue of 'accepting / rejecting' a person is focused mainly on the lifestyle, mentality, philosophy of the individual -- say for example MSam -- and NOT the person.

    That you think "I reject YOU" because you're Jewish is absolutely, thoroughly and flat out wronnng.

    Besides, you are the Moderator Emeritus; can't reject you, just can't.
    I don't think you reject me, I think you reject Michael Sam. The question is, why the distinction?

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    You profess to have a problem with Michael Sam because of his "sin."
    I don't have a problem with Michael Sam, I do have a problem with the glorification of sin. We are all born into sin, therefore we are all dealing with sin on a daily basis.


    The Glorification Of Sin

    By Andy Alexander

    The United States was once a good nation as far as morality was concerned, but sadly, it is now quickly becoming a nation like so many of the heathen nations that have gone before. The institution of marriage was respected by most of the citizens of this country. The sin of homosexuality was unheard of except in rare instances. Abortion and single parenting were equally non-existent. Gambling was looked on as an evil and only the basest of people engaged in this vice. This is not to say that we were a totally pure country, but sin was not glorified, glamorized, and condoned by the majority of the people. Now, it is different. What has happened?

    Sinners do not remain in a static state. We either repent and get better day by day as we let God's word work in our lives, or we continue to live in sin and wax worse and worse as Paul told Timothy. "But evil men and women shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2 Tim. 3:13). This seems to be the case in our nation today. People in this land seem to be less sensitive to sin than ever before. We are tolerating things that our forefathers would have never dreamed of tolerating.

    The Bible has been banned from the public schools. Homosexuals are paraded before us daily and we are told that their lifestyle is perfectly acceptable and moral. Gutter language has become the norm, even among the very young. The government has resorted to gambling as a means of sponsoring their many social programs which only encourage more slothfulness. Drunkenness and sexual promiscuity are at an all-time high among young people and no end is in sight.

    In a recent television interview a cheerleader from the Hempstead High School cheerleading squad in Hempstead, Texas was pointing out that cheerleaders were still good role models for children, even though four of her squad mates had recently become pregnant and had to be dismissed from the squad. However, one was reinstated after she aborted her baby. The mentality that says an immodestly dressed girl, gyrating in lewd suggestive ways is a good role model illustrates the dearth of Bible knowledge throughout this land (Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Tim. 2:9-10). And, the fact that some Christians condone this activity is also a sign of Bible illiteracy and rebellion among the people of God.

    Our nation seeks to glorify sin and make it more and more respectable. Government, the news media, television, movies, videos, schools, and sports are some of the avenues in which sin is glorified in our nation. This campaign has worked and many Christians have caved in to the idea that nothing can be done.

    As Christians, we not only glorify sin when we allow our children to participate in activities such as cheerleading, but when we let them or encourage them to participate in any ungodly activity; or, when we ourselves engage in worldly practices, we are helping to glorify sin. Going to the local movie theater or renting videos to watch at home in which cursing, murder, nudity, and sexual permissiveness are not only endorsed but also glorified is another way in which we, as Christians, can be helping to promote these sinful activities. Remember what Paul said when he was exhorting the Ephesian brethren to walk in the light, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11). Can these practices be any-thing other than "unfruitful works of darkness"?

    When we participate in sinful worldly activities, we help to legitimize that activity in the eyes of the world. We could term this "acceptable worldliness." It is acceptable in the eyes of the world and some worldly-minded Christians, but it is not acceptable in the eyes of our Creator and Judge (Jas. 4:4). False teaching on marriage, divorce, and remarriage and acceptance of those who teach this error by supposedly sound congregations is another instance where sin is made to appear respectable. Adultery is one of the foremost causes for the moral decline of our nation and the church which does not teach and uphold the doctrine of Christ in this realm is helping to glorify this sin among those whom they have the ability to influence.

    Social drinking, mixed swimming, immodest apparel worn at sporting events, gambling, and filthy, suggestive language are other areas where Christians are being tempted to glorify sin. We must not lend support to the devil and his cause by participating in these or any other ungodly practice. We are to be lights in the world so that others may see our good works and glorify God who is in heaven (Matt. 5:16).

    We, as God's people, can stand up and oppose the onward march of Satan. We can teach our children and set the proper example before them (Eph. 6:4; Tit. 2:6-7). We can learn what they are being taught in school and counter-act the sinful teaching with the mighty word of God (2 Cor. 10:3-5). We can restrict them; not allow them to participate in sinful activities such as cheerleading and attendance at the school dances (Gen. 18:19; Josh. 24:15). We can be the pillar and support of the truth that we are to be as the children of God (1 Tim. 3:15). We can vote for candidates who, to the best of our knowledge, uphold the high standards of morality as taught in God's word (Rom. 13:3-4). The moral health of our country is far more important than the physical health which is being discussed so much in the news of our day (Prov. 14:34). This moral health will only improve as we improve ourselves individually in the eyes of God.

    Our teaching at home, in the Bible classes, and from the pulpit should contain practical application that can be easily understood by the audience. Principles from God's word must be plainly taught so that the practical application will have a sure foundation to rest upon. However, without clear, understandable application, many will not get the message. Preaching against lasciviousness is good, but without application that points to the local school dance, mixed swimming pool, gymnastic attire, or other forms of immodest clothing, some of the listeners will not receive the message. We, as teachers, must give the brethren something that they can take home and put to use.

    Sin is indeed glorified by many in this land, but we must not become discouraged. A more determined spirit to combat Satan is needed. We can win the battle and help to save others in the process. Let us heed the advice of Paul when he exhorted Timothy to, "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4:16).
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    I don't have a problem with Michael Sam, I do have a problem with the glorification of sin. We are all born into sin, therefore we are all dealing with sin on a daily basis.


    The Glorification Of Sin

    By Andy Alexander

    The United States was once a good nation as far as morality was concerned, but sadly, it is now quickly becoming a nation like so many of the heathen nations that have gone before. The institution of marriage was respected by most of the citizens of this country. The sin of homosexuality was unheard of except in rare instances. Abortion and single parenting were equally non-existent. Gambling was looked on as an evil and only the basest of people engaged in this vice. This is not to say that we were a totally pure country, but sin was not glorified, glamorized, and condoned by the majority of the people. Now, it is different. What has happened?

    Sinners do not remain in a static state. We either repent and get better day by day as we let God's word work in our lives, or we continue to live in sin and wax worse and worse as Paul told Timothy. "But evil men and women shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2 Tim. 3:13). This seems to be the case in our nation today. People in this land seem to be less sensitive to sin than ever before. We are tolerating things that our forefathers would have never dreamed of tolerating.

    The Bible has been banned from the public schools. Homosexuals are paraded before us daily and we are told that their lifestyle is perfectly acceptable and moral. Gutter language has become the norm, even among the very young. The government has resorted to gambling as a means of sponsoring their many social programs which only encourage more slothfulness. Drunkenness and sexual promiscuity are at an all-time high among young people and no end is in sight.

    In a recent television interview a cheerleader from the Hempstead High School cheerleading squad in Hempstead, Texas was pointing out that cheerleaders were still good role models for children, even though four of her squad mates had recently become pregnant and had to be dismissed from the squad. However, one was reinstated after she aborted her baby. The mentality that says an immodestly dressed girl, gyrating in lewd suggestive ways is a good role model illustrates the dearth of Bible knowledge throughout this land (Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Tim. 2:9-10). And, the fact that some Christians condone this activity is also a sign of Bible illiteracy and rebellion among the people of God.

    Our nation seeks to glorify sin and make it more and more respectable. Government, the news media, television, movies, videos, schools, and sports are some of the avenues in which sin is glorified in our nation. This campaign has worked and many Christians have caved in to the idea that nothing can be done.

    As Christians, we not only glorify sin when we allow our children to participate in activities such as cheerleading, but when we let them or encourage them to participate in any ungodly activity; or, when we ourselves engage in worldly practices, we are helping to glorify sin. Going to the local movie theater or renting videos to watch at home in which cursing, murder, nudity, and sexual permissiveness are not only endorsed but also glorified is another way in which we, as Christians, can be helping to promote these sinful activities. Remember what Paul said when he was exhorting the Ephesian brethren to walk in the light, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11). Can these practices be any-thing other than "unfruitful works of darkness"?

    When we participate in sinful worldly activities, we help to legitimize that activity in the eyes of the world. We could term this "acceptable worldliness." It is acceptable in the eyes of the world and some worldly-minded Christians, but it is not acceptable in the eyes of our Creator and Judge (Jas. 4:4). False teaching on marriage, divorce, and remarriage and acceptance of those who teach this error by supposedly sound congregations is another instance where sin is made to appear respectable. Adultery is one of the foremost causes for the moral decline of our nation and the church which does not teach and uphold the doctrine of Christ in this realm is helping to glorify this sin among those whom they have the ability to influence.

    Social drinking, mixed swimming, immodest apparel worn at sporting events, gambling, and filthy, suggestive language are other areas where Christians are being tempted to glorify sin. We must not lend support to the devil and his cause by participating in these or any other ungodly practice. We are to be lights in the world so that others may see our good works and glorify God who is in heaven (Matt. 5:16).

    We, as God's people, can stand up and oppose the onward march of Satan. We can teach our children and set the proper example before them (Eph. 6:4; Tit. 2:6-7). We can learn what they are being taught in school and counter-act the sinful teaching with the mighty word of God (2 Cor. 10:3-5). We can restrict them; not allow them to participate in sinful activities such as cheerleading and attendance at the school dances (Gen. 18:19; Josh. 24:15). We can be the pillar and support of the truth that we are to be as the children of God (1 Tim. 3:15). We can vote for candidates who, to the best of our knowledge, uphold the high standards of morality as taught in God's word (Rom. 13:3-4). The moral health of our country is far more important than the physical health which is being discussed so much in the news of our day (Prov. 14:34). This moral health will only improve as we improve ourselves individually in the eyes of God.

    Our teaching at home, in the Bible classes, and from the pulpit should contain practical application that can be easily understood by the audience. Principles from God's word must be plainly taught so that the practical application will have a sure foundation to rest upon. However, without clear, understandable application, many will not get the message. Preaching against lasciviousness is good, but without application that points to the local school dance, mixed swimming pool, gymnastic attire, or other forms of immodest clothing, some of the listeners will not receive the message. We, as teachers, must give the brethren something that they can take home and put to use.

    Sin is indeed glorified by many in this land, but we must not become discouraged. A more determined spirit to combat Satan is needed. We can win the battle and help to save others in the process. Let us heed the advice of Paul when he exhorted Timothy to, "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Tim. 4:16).
    This article does not do a very good job of explaining what it means to "glorify" one's sin.

    Does it mean that that Michael Sam should have stayed "in the closet"?

    Does it mean that he should not speak out publicly for the rights of homosexuals?

    What would it mean in my context?

    I can practice Judaism and reject Jesus as the "Savior" in the privacy of my home, but not in public?

    Do I glorify my "sin" by sending my children to religious school where they are taught things you regard to be blasphemous?

    I, quite frankly, find this concept of "glorification" of sin to be nonsense.

    As the saying goes... ethical behaviour is doing the right thing when nobody is watching.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Unfortunately complaining about gymnastic attire and "mixed swimming" is where we lose a lot of people.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Here's the reality...

    If the Bible and all other religious texts were silent on the issue of homosexuality, I believe that most, if not all, of the people rejecting Michael Sam for religious reasons would still reject him because of his sexuality.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    I, quite frankly, find this concept of "glorification" of sin to be nonsense.
    No worries, just want to respond. You asked and I answered.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    No worries, just want to respond. You asked and I answered.
    How would you define the term "glorification of sin"?

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    How would you define the term "glorification of sin"?
    This ad glorifies a sin.

    The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread-adtrack-dos-equisx.jpg

    This ad does not.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post
    That's exactly why. It's so rare for someone to hold that opinion anymore that I always pause and observe it when I see it.

    Also I thought you were referring to religion as a whole, rather than proselytizing, but it remains a fascinating answer for me in both regards. The amount of people in the modern world (particularly on the internet) interested in forcing their opinions and beliefs on others is particularly high. There was a time when Atheists, for example, largely left people alone. Now many of them do as much preaching as Evangelists.
    You described, essentially, where I stand on this issue. It's, as a whole, not for me, but I think it's great when people can use it as a force for good which I believe and hope would be the intention of it.

    What I will say, however, is this: I don't like the idea of people thinking they're above anyone else. And what I mean by that is Michael Sam and other people who are gay could be really great people, give to charities, whatever; they could live picture perfect lives as far as being a good Samaritan goes and yet they're still viewed as someone lower on the pedestal. They still, despite being genuinely good people, are going to theoretically be condemned for something that feels natural to them. The idea that people may pity Sam and hope he finds "the right path" through God is just a shame to me. I'm fairly positive the guy already believes in God (if I'm remembering correctly he thanked God for this opportunity at the press conference). Uh oh. Now what? To me, if you aren't hurting anyone then I don't think there's any reason to be judgmental over something about anyone's lives that literally does not affect us whatsoever.


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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    This ad glorifies a sin.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	adtrack-dos-equisx.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	27.7 KB 
ID:	4353

    This ad does not.

    Oh, come now. Don't cop out. You introduced the term into the discussion. You should be able to define it with words. Until you do, I really don't know what the point is that you're trying to make.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    There is only one Judge, everyone else should be holding onto their rocks (I was going to say stones, but that sounded wrong somehow).
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