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Thread: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post
    There is only one Judge, everyone else should be holding onto their rocks (I was going to say stones, but that sounded wrong somehow).
    So, what you're saying is... you took your username from the 80s pop song by Mister Mister, a band also known for their hit single Kyrie Eleison which translates to "Lord, have mercy."

    (Sorry... whimsical tangent)


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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Here's the problem I see with RealRam's (and others) argument...

    You profess to have a problem with Michael Sam because of his "sin."

    Under Christian doctrine, I am guilty of the sin of non-belief. I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, I don't believe he was the Messiah, and I don't believe he "died for our sins." (none of this should be a surprise, as I am Jewish)

    So how can you reject Michael Sam, and accept me at the same time? (or, if you don't want to make this about me, how about Carroll Rosenbloom - the owner of the Rams when many of us became fans - who was also Jewish)

    The only honest and logical answer is that that you are making qualitative distinctions between different types of "sins."

    Who gave you that right?
    It's a great question, but it depends on what you mean by "reject" and "accept" -- I'm not trying to be a weasle here, it's just a complex, multi-dimensional question and discussion. So for the sake of clarity, this might go a little long. First, some background.

    I am retired military. On eight separate occasions, I took the oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. Every time I took that oath, I read the whole thing. Of particular interest to me was the Bill of Rights, other Amendments to the Constitution, and the amendment process itself. As a gun owner and gun enthusiast, the 2nd Amendment was near and dear to my heart.

    I went to a lot of gun shows. At one particular show in Charlotte NC, there were a bunch of us around a table, talking. We probably looked exactly like the stereotypes you might have in your head: flannel shirts, beards, baseball caps, hunting jackets, boots, many carrying slung rifles or holstered handguns. (No beard for me of course, and I was probably wearing a Marine Corps hoody.) The subject was gun rights groups, and the table was for gun rights group Grass Roots North Carolina. The discussion included the NRA, the Second Amendment Foundation, and many others.

    Someone mentioned a group called Pink Pistols. Most of us had never heard of it, and at first we thought it was a group specifically for women. We were wrong. As it turned out, Pink Pistols was a gun advocacy group for gays, lesbians, and transtypes. Once we all understood what the group was, we all...

    Cheered very loudly! Whoops and high fives all around. It might make your brain tilt trying to imagine that, but we were absolutely overjoyed. We all believe the 2nd Amendment recognizes and protects the right of all individuals to keep and bear arms, but normally that interpretation is pinned (by liberals) to conservatives, hunters, and hicks. But here were people who are normally on the political opposite end of the spectrum from us, and they got it. The 2nd Amendment is for everybody.

    Now, to try to answer your question and make this post relevant.

    As an American, retired Marine and Constitution defender, I believe Michael Sam should have every right that every other American has.

    As a Christian, I believe he is a sinner, of which homosexual acts are only a portion of his sins. I believe there is only one way to be saved from the penalty of his sins, and it's the same one way for everybody. But I believe his sins are different only in style from others, not in severity. And it's not my job to condemn him for his sins. If I have one job to do as a Christian, it is to be a good ambassador for Christ, and that means sharing the truth in love. Judgment for sin is above my paygrade.

    Specifically regarding the sin of unbelief, again it's not my job to condemn. My role would be to share the gospel with you in a way that is relevant to you, and to answer any questions you might have. I can't make you believe anything, we are free agents in that regard. But in such situations, I am accountable to God for being a good representative. If I am well mannered, and speak with you saying things as inoffensively as possible, then your decision is your decision. But if I'm an asshat or an idiot, then it's still your decision, but I'm accountable to God for my bad representation of him.

    One other thing. It might be my role to pray for you. But if I do, I'm not supposed to tell you about it. I don't offer to pray for you, I don't tell you I'm praying for you, I don't give you status reports on my prayers for you. Such prayers are supposed to be done in secret. Different story if you ask for prayer or visit a church, but prayers are supposed to be communication with God, not something to use on non-believers.

    As an individual, I really don't care what Sam does behind closed door with consenting adults. That's entirely his decision. As a heterosexual, I would probably find many of those things he does repugnant if I were to be witness to them. Fortunately for me, I have no interest in being a witness to them, and so I am rarely offended.

    As a person, I hate being manipulated. Sam happens to be the focal point for a larger agenda (which includes Oprah among others). Agendas are fine, but not when they're hidden, and there seem to have been hidden agendas all along in Sam's situation.

    Case in point, the post-draft tongue-gagging kiss. I would have found it just as distasteful and inappropriate if it was a player and his wife or girlfriend having the same spit-swapping kiss. But the most I have ever seen with any other drafted player is a quick kiss, maybe a couple of seconds max. Which means in every other case, either the cameras were turned off by the time the couple got passionate, or it was caught on camera but edited out of any on-air broadcast. In Sam's case, the cameras stayed on (agenda) and that passionate moment got a lot of airplay (agenda). Then when some of us found that offensive, we were told it's the same thing that happens with every a lot of heterosexual couples (agenda), and that we were probably homophobes (agenda) if we were in any way opposed to that kiss being broadcast. And that was before it was known that Oprah had a camera crew there, and that the cameras kept rolling for that express purpose (agenda less hidden).

    The whole Sam-coming-out experience had a very contrived feel to it from the moment he first made the announcement. The more that becomes known, the more confirmed that contrivance seems to be. I find all that highly offensive. I'm much more offended at Sam's participation in scheming than I am about his orientation.

    I wouldn't mind having a beer with Sam and his boyfriend, and I wouldn't mind it if they kissed each other in front of me, if it's a quick kiss well suited for a public environment. But I'd be offended and probably leave if they did any tongue-throating (unless we were in a gay bar -- in that case, I accept the social conditions when I enter the building). But I'd think it was just as offensive and inappropriate if it was a guy and a girl tongue-throating in public. I'm not opposed to people engaging in that behavior, I just think it belongs where it's appropriate.

    I hope I adequately answered your question. I can only speak for myself, but I'm guessing there might be a few others here who share my viewpoints.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Let's put the Oprah show to the side, as I think most agree that it was a bad idea.

    As for the kiss, I agree that the coverage was excessive, but the act itself... I frankly don't think it was unprecedented. I've seen plenty of male athletes celebrate a moment with a passionate kiss with a girlfriend, and I don't recall anyone ever saying that it was "too much."

    As for the rest... I think you walk a fine line. Understand that, if you came up to me and tried to explain to me why I should accept Jesus as my Savior, I'd find that annoying. If you persisted, I'd find it offensive.

    Your religion is your business and mine is my business. I won't ever tell you that your beliefs are wrong, and I'd ask the same courtesy from all who are of a different faith than mine.

    The exact same concept applies to Michael Sam and his sexuality.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Oh, come now. Don't cop out. You introduced the term into the discussion. You should be able to define it with words. Until you do, I really don't know what the point is that you're trying to make.
    The mentality that says an immodestly dressed girl, gyrating in lewd suggestive ways is a good role model illustrates the dearth of Bible knowledge throughout this land (Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Tim. 2:9-10). And, the fact that some Christians condone this activity is also a sign of Bible illiteracy and rebellion among the people of God.
    In February 2007, a home sex video that Kim made with Ray J years earlier was leaked. Vivid Entertainment bought the rights for $1 million and released the film as Kim Kardashian: Superstar on February 21.[7] Kim sued Vivid for ownership of the tape, but dropped the suit in April 2007 and settled with Vivid Entertainment for $5 million.wiki
    Look at this reality TV show for instance... the whole show is based on what? This is the good life? It's the lifestyle we all should be aiming for? This is just another example of sin being glorified.

    It's ok to make a sex tape nowadays, it's the norm. It's the way of the "world."

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Okay, so how is that relevant to Michael Sam?

    Was it "glorification" when he announced he is gay?

    Or, like Blue Talon, was it the kiss that crossed the line for you?

    In this context, I also ask this...

    Do you find any of these moments offensive (click to enlarge)?

    The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread-kiss.jpg

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AV
    I won't ever tell you that your beliefs are wrong
    I assume by "wrong", you mean in the moral sense. Because surely you believe the core of Christianity to be "wrong" in the sense that you see it as inaccurate.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    I assume by "wrong", you mean in the moral sense. Because surely you believe the core of Christianity to be "wrong" in the sense that you see it as inaccurate.
    Fair question.

    As a Jew, I believe that the Christian interpretation of who Jesus was is not correct. That is axiomatic to Judaism.

    I would not, however, tell you that your interpretation is "wrong." I would merely state that I disagree.

    I also would say that, to a large degree, it does not matter. The moral teachings of Jesus are essentially the same as those that are at the core of Judaism. (That is why the phrase "Judeo-Christian values" is a valid one) So, in the end, my view of Christianity and Judaism can be summed up as two groups traveling to the same destination via different paths.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -05-19-2014 at 03:51 PM.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Okay, so how is that relevant to Michael Sam?

    Was it "glorification" when he announced he is gay?

    No, I have no problem that he's gay and I'm sure he's not the only gay player in the NFL. But he is the first that wants to promote his lifestyle and I'm not shocked by that and the world will eat it up. If Janoris Jenkins came out and said I want to have a TV about the way I live with my kids and girls friends It would be no different and the world would eat it up.

    Or, like Blue Talon, was it the kiss that crossed the line for you?
    No the kiss was what we all see on TV these days, not expecting to see that on ESPN. After we learned about the reality show and who was there filming it, it made more sense that they had the whole cake thing going on, it's what sells on those shows.

    In this context, I also ask this...

    Do you find any of these moments offensive (click to enlarge)?

    Okay, so how is that relevant to Michael Sam?

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Certainly, if you stated that you found Michael Sam's kiss to be offensive, then your view of the photos I attached would provide an interesting comparison.

    Based on your answers, it seems that the thing that perhaps has rubbed you the wrong way is the excessive coverage of Michael Sam's story. I don't necessarily disagree with that. The media is often excessive when it comes to coverage of stories that might garner ratings. In fact, I'm probably the last person you'll ever see defending the media.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Or, like Blue Talon, was it the kiss that crossed the line for you?

    In this context, I also ask this...

    Do you find any of these moments offensive?
    Just so I'm perfectly clear here, I don't have a problem with the kiss. And to answer your question, any one of those kisses in your attachment might be OK if they are brief celebratory kisses of a few seconds or less, or they might be inappropriate if they are prolonged. It's hard to tell from just the photos. But while we're on the subject, in any of those cases, regardless of how long the kiss itself lasted, how long did the camera focus on them, or the the shot stay on them before it got shifted to another camera?

    The problem I have with Sam's particular kiss on that particular day was that the way it was handled was completely contrived, fully intended to get the result it got. Let's just say for a moment that Sam and his boyfriend were completely innocent as to the intentions of others. (I don't believe it for a second, since Oprah's camera crew was in the room, but for the sake of argument, let's just say they were clueless.)

    Oprah had an agenda, and whether or not anyone else shared that agenda, everyone went along with it. Cameramen, networks, producers, editors. Every one of them either pushed for or allowed extended camera time on that kiss. That is different than how other kisses are treated, certainly not in the NFL draft coverage. It is not the same thing.

    Part of what riles me up is how some people insist the kiss and how it was treated are exactly the same as how heterosexuals kiss and how those kisses are treated in the same situation. That is patently false. Then the followup might be that it was treated differently because it was news, all related to the first openly gay player to be drafted. Fair enough (we can still have the discussion on whether it was appropriate), but it was in fact different.

    People who insist it was the same thing are being disingenuous or redefining reality.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTalon View Post
    Part of what riles me up is how some people insist the kiss and how it was treated are exactly the same as how heterosexuals kiss and how those kisses are treated in the same situation.
    I'd say that I half agree with you.

    I don't think the kiss itself was markedly different from heterosexual kisses we've seen on TV during sporting event celebrations.

    I do agree that that the treatment of the kiss by the media was very different.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -05-19-2014 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    As for the rest... I think you walk a fine line. Understand that, if you came up to me and tried to explain to me why I should accept Jesus as my Savior, I'd find that annoying. If you persisted, I'd find it offensive.

    Your religion is your business and mine is my business. I won't ever tell you that your beliefs are wrong, and I'd ask the same courtesy from all who are of a different faith than mine.
    I generally don't broach the subject unless someone else starts talking about it or expresses an interest. I'm guessing if you and I were together, we'd be drinking beers and talking about football. I would not start talking to you about Christianity unless you first said something. (And by "something", I don't mean "anything". I wouldn't use something unrelated as a pretense to start thumping you with a Bible.)

    To me, one of the wonderful things about different religions is exactly the question of who is right and who is wrong. There are a myriad of different, mutually exclusive belief systems. If any one of them is right, then by definition the others are wrong. It is fascinating to me how many people have a problem with that concept.

    I'm not necessarily talking about you here. I'm thinking of my dad, who has his own weird belief about God and the universe. I asked him one time if he thought I was wrong, or if he in fact thought anybody was wrong. He gave me the typically mamby-pamby American answer that "whatever they believe is right for them."

    I spent a year in Russia. Most Russians I spoke with grasped the concept quickly, that with mutually exclusive religions, someone had to be wrong. That realization was always followed by either the statement "but you can't know" or the question "how can you know?" The discussions that followed were always very interesting.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Here's the reality...

    If the Bible and all other religious texts were silent on the issue of homosexuality, I believe that most, if not all, of the people rejecting Michael Sam for religious reasons would still reject him because of his sexuality.

    I believe if the bible or other popular religious texts that have gained massive popularity in roughly the last 2000 years didn't bring up homosexuality, the modern world would probably treat it like most of the ancient world did. These books created these widely-accepted sexual stigmas, in my opinion.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Here's the reality...

    If the Bible and all other religious texts were silent on the issue of homosexuality, I believe that most, if not all, of the people rejecting Michael Sam for religious reasons would still reject him because of his sexuality.
    Quote highlight mine.


    Wow. For a summary of reality, that is ONE HUGE "IF"!

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    the bible says you cant get tattoos and piercings, do you guys follow them too? Also, you guys stone your kids when theyre bad? Pick and choose what to follow in the bible lol.

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