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Thread: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Positive. The Bible most everyone is familiar with, the King James bible, is what most other English bible translations are based off of. The original Bible was translated into Greek and then Latin. From Latin it was later translated into German and English. They are generally regarded as very good translations, I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are poor.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    A. Are you certain of this? B. They aren't exactly good translations as far as I know.
    A. I am certain of it.
    B. On what basis do you come to that conclusion?

    Some translations are better than others. I studied Koine Greek for two years. It didn't make me fluent, but I was able to follow along in the original language fairly well.

    I was a Russian linguist in the Marine Corps. I can tell you from first hand experience that there will be variations in translations if more than one person (or team) is doing the translating. Some things are very easy to translate because they can only be used to mean one thing and they can only be used one way. Others, not so much.

    Take for example, the definite article -- the English word "the". There is only one version of it in English. Koine Greek has 17 different versions. Russian does not have it at all. How you go from one language to another takes skill with the language and knowledge of the context.

    Someone not skilled in the language might see something written in one language with the meanings of the words written underneath, compare it to the final translation, and conclude is was a bad translation because it didn't match up exactly with the original text with the words underneath. And that conclusion, based on that assumption, would be wrong.

    It doesn't help that the English language (as well as any other living language) is constantly morphing. Imagine a single word in another language that means to hit another person really hard. What one word would you choose to translate it?
    Hit?
    Punch?
    Smack?
    Thump?
    Pummel?

    Or would you choose to add an adjective (something the original language didn't do)?

    That's not even scratching then surface. One thing I am absolutely certain of is this -- the people claiming there are no good English translations of the Bible know a helluva lot less about the languages involved than the people who actually did the translating.


    Back on topic -- with the media backing off, it appears Sam will be getting as fair of a shot at a career in the NFL as it's possible to get.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTalon View Post
    It doesn't help that the English language (as well as any other living language) is constantly morphing. Imagine a single word in another language that means to hit another person really hard. What one word would you choose to translate it?
    Hit?
    Punch?
    Smack?
    Thump?
    Pummel?
    Clearly, it would be "I'm going to hit that"?
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenWing View Post
    Positive. The Bible most everyone is familiar with, the King James bible, is what most other English bible translations are based off of. The original Bible was translated into Greek and then Latin. From Latin it was later translated into German and English. They are generally regarded as very good translations, I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are poor.
    Not to nitpick, but the bolded part isn't entirely accurate. The New Testament, with the exception of a few words here and there, was actually originally written in Greek. And while the Bible was certainly translated into Latin, the current English translations were not translated from Latin. And the later English translations were not based off of the King James version either. All major English translations of the Bible were based off of manuscripts in the original languages.

    Note I said translations. Paraphrased and interpreted versions are not based on the original languages.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Clearly, it would be "I'm going to hit that"?
    Nope. That's my point. In my hypothetical situation, the original word meant to hit someone hard. Translating the word the way you did does not convey the true meaning of the word.

    Which means your choice would be to use a word that doesn't adequately convey the meaning of the word you are trying to translate, or you have to resort to using an adjective or other modifier.

    If the idea is to translate not just the words but also the ideas behind them, it sometimes just is not possible to do a word-for-word translation from one language to another. You have to be a little creative.

    And in those cases where such creativity is demanded, if many different persons or teams are doing separate translations, then it is inevitable that there will be variations among the different translations.

    And in situations like that, you can be accused of deviating from the original text by people who don't know any better, even if you were completely faithful to the meaning of the original text.
    Last edited by BlueTalon; -05-20-2014 at 06:26 PM.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I've cautioned you about trying to lecture me on Judaism before, but I guess you're intent on trying to become a Google expert on the subject.

    I am well aware that there are Orthodox Jews who are intolerant of homosexuality. Your suggestion that this is the prevailing view, however, is incorrect. I belong to a Conservative Synagogue (not part of the "liberal" or "progressive" movement), and the Rabbis are openly supportive of the gay community and have created outreach programs to ensure that they feel welcome at the Synagogue.
    No wonder you are "Moderator Emeritus".

    Why would you think I was trying to 'lecture' you on Judaism!?! I was simply sharing with you a couple of articles I found with a particular Jewish view, that's all. I thought you might find them interesting as I did, but that is far from any semblance of intent or effort to persuade you into anything Jewish. That's silly / funny.

    I am NOT "trying to become a Google expert on the subject". I google often, it's part of my work and certainly a handy tool I use to satisfy both my curiosity on a wide range of cultural topics as well as in researching language translations. English is not my native tongue. Is there a problem in googling often?

    But NO, Av, I am not trying to become an expert on Judaism. I don't need nor want to become an expert on Judaism. Again, that's silly / funny!

    Oh, and it would be expected that you belong to a conservative synagogue that welcomes gays. Big deal. So does my church.


    Oy vey! ...Yes, I admit it, I googled that.

    Last edited by RealRam; -05-20-2014 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Format
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTalon View Post
    Nope. That's my point. In my hypothetical situation, the original word meant to hit someone hard. Translating the word the way you did does not convey the true meaning of the word.
    You do get that I was being sarcastic, right?

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTalon View Post

    Some translations are better than others. I studied Koine Greek for two years. It didn't make me fluent, but I was able to follow along in the original language fairly well.

    Someone not skilled in the language might see something written in one language with the meanings of the words written underneath, compare it to the final translation, and conclude is was a bad translation because it didn't match up exactly with the original text with the words underneath. And that conclusion, based on that assumption, would be wrong.

    It doesn't help that the English language (as well as any other living language) is constantly morphing. ...That's not even scratching then surface. One thing I am absolutely certain of is this -- the people claiming there are no good English translations of the Bible know a helluva lot less about the languages involved than the people who actually did the translating.


    Back on topic -- with the media backing off, it appears Sam will be getting as fair of a shot at a career in the NFL as it's possible to get.

    Muy bien, muy bien BT.



    Same here. I too studied two years of Koine Greek. Also took classes on Hebrew / Yiddish and a touch of Aramaic. Scripture translation is a subject in its own merit. There is much history involved and certainly entire treatises on linguistics, both aspects that I find fascinating.


    Ha, if MSam would be browsing into these "agree to disagree" comments he might become overwhelmed. Stands to reason that the Rams are trying to keep the rookie working, sleeping, eating and drinking a full regimen of football.

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    You do get that I was being sarcastic, right?
    Flew right over my head. (Doh!)

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    My bad for not using the Official ClanRam sarcasm font (Lucida Console).

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    If this thread, and it's many topics covered, has shown me anything, it's that we need a sub-forum for religious discussion. I've (mostly) enjoyed reading the differing points of view on different subjects in this thread, and would like to see the discussions continue after this thread is gone.
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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomahawk247 View Post
    You sound uncomfortable in your own beliefs. Otherwise you wouldn't be ranting and preaching so much. Quite frankly Michael Sam, his boyfriend and homosexuality as a whole shouldn't affect you if you are a man comfortable with his own sexuality and comfortable with your own beliefs. But the fact you are taking such an interest suggests you are very uncomfortable. After all, what else has it got to do with you? The only way you would be ranting this way is to convince yourself because you really aren't convincing anyone else.

    Oh and yes, the NFL uses chaplains and spiratual advisers for players and teams. Many players pray before or after games. But only those players that are religious. There is no team forcing players to pray to a god they don't believe in.

    By the same token...

    Does that mean, then, that those with an opposing view from mine "feel very uncomfortable" with their belief system just because they advocate it firmly? Or, that they're in the process of "convincing themselves" as a result of trying to convince others? Pleeeeease!

    That would make men like Demosthenes, Cicero, John the Baptist, St. Paul, John Calvin, John Wesley, Dwight L. Moody, Charles Spurgeon, Teddy Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., Billy Graham, Og Mandino, George Vandeman, Zig Ziglar, George Foreman, Doug Batchelor, Anthony Robbins, Nick Vujicic, and 'a "few" more' VERY insecure and uncomfortable according to your observation.

    These were vehemently passionate, fiery champion orators and rhetoricians, guided by deep principles and faith, whether religious, motivational or politics oriented. Just imagine John the Baptist feeling 'uncomfortable' with his steadfast and staunch call for people to "...repent!", including the accusing of King Herod Antipas' adultery (and paying with his life for it, as Jesus did for the world).




    The 2nd part of your post. You really got me wondering:

    "...Many players pray before or after games. But only those players that are religious. There is no team forcing players to pray to a god they don't believe in."

    Hmmm, you think? 8| - - I suppose that those players that kneel for a few seconds after scoring a TD to give thanks and praise, they're probably religious too, huh?


    I feel extremely comfortable and at peace with my set of spiritual faith and convictions, thanks.
    ===========================

    I've mentioned before that MSam will, of course, not be ostracized by the Rams. NFL Christian players (reference post #282, p. 17) will sooner or later call on him but it's up to MSam to heed the call or to simply dismiss it -- happens ALL the time.

    It could be Eddie Williams for example.

    Or Lamarcus Joyner, or, Nick Vujicic. - -

    I'm pretty sure they're quite comfortable also with what they preach and practice.
    Last edited by RealRam; -05-21-2014 at 06:56 PM. Reason: EWilliams

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread



    "A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of." - Lk. 6:45

    Last edited by RealRam; -05-20-2014 at 11:50 PM. Reason: To remove duplicate post

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    One of my deep concerns -- that some feeble minded swiftly denounce as 'ignorance' or Racism -- is that even as a nation, the U.S. (and more countries are following suit of course [monkey see...]) sees this gay tolerance and acceptance as a "right step" towards progress.

    Case in point, "the [U.S.] President congratulates the Rams and the NFL for taking an important step forward in our Nationís journey. From the playing field to the corporate boardroom, Black Americans prove everyday that you should be judged by what you do and not who you are (Colour of your skin)."

    Wow. Some progress. Some journey. 8|

    No wonder some of the finest international intellectuals see some modern day world powers as represented by the Rome of antiquity, and the fall of her empire through, in great part as cause and effect, and, at least in theory, the ugly, perverted and degenerates that ruled her in the III - IV centuries A.D., who dragged her former glory into civic disease, debauchery, and decay.


    I don't know if MSam participates in Black Pride parades that are now almost a normality as they shamelessly flow down the streets of large and small cities alike. I could care less if he does or not. But I do fear, in heart and intellectually, that people like him, whether he makes it in the NFL or not will be allowed in the near future to continue his popularity, to be more accepted by, for example, starting a NASCAR race as the official announcer; by singing the American national anthem at a Rams game; by being the special invited Black person at the White House, etc. As it is, he has already made quite a name for himself

    To me, it is sad and greatly disappointing that many an individual should embrace such tolerance and acceptance under the disgraceful idiosyncrasy of a "justified majority". Everybody else is okay with it, why not me! And they cling to that assumption failing to realize that being "most" is not necessarily being right.

    It's always easier to follow the mob, especially when it entails having 'fun' and, particularly, when it provides a sense of self-justification for one's questionable ways. Forget about decency, morality and virtue: bah! "Too subjective"... **Sad Sigh**


    I hope MSam falls on his face and does not make the team for football failure, even if because another prospect beats him to it. That ... all this nauseating novelty would leave Rams camp. I know it won't but I'd prefer he be picked up by another franchise willing to go, and gain, media frenzy.


    As most entities, the NFL is trying hard to be fair yet popular. Not an easy bifurcation.

    'Hope it maintains its sanity and not fall like this --->

    I've edited this post to make a point. You have an outdated view on this, and it's lucky that people like you are becoming a thing of the past.

    You have an outdated and hurtful view on this, much like people had when African American's starting having rights.

    Also, think you can cheer for a different team? Maybe the whiners? You know, take your hate speak to another market?

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    Re: The Official Michael Sam "Off-the-Field" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Canada
    Bottom line, you can quote the bible all you want, but God is bigger than the bible. Everything he is, isn't contained in that one small book
    But what do we know of God, if not from the Bible?
    Quote Originally Posted by Canada
    Why would he make people gay, if only to punish them?
    Why does God make heterosexuals, if only to punish the adulterous?
    Why does God make people angry, if only to punish those who are quick to anger?
    Why does God make people with a propensity for alcoholism, if only to punish them for drunkenness?
    Why does God make liars, if only to punish them for lying?
    Why does God make hateful people, if only to punish them for being hateful?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

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