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  1. #1
    MauiRam's Avatar
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    One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Yesterday Cliff Ryan got penalized for a "horse collar" There was some debate on air over whether it was really a horse collar or not. I think the rule stinks big time! If you're chasing a guy and you are lucky enough to get your hand on his jersey, shoulder pad, or anything other than his facemask, and pull him down, it is a tackle. I absolutely cannot stand the rule. Yes. yes people tackled in such a fashion could be injured, but the risk of injury exists on every play. The NFL played successfully for many years without the "horse collar" rule and could do so again. Back in the day when I played in high school I got "horse collared" as a rb and delivered a few while playing db. It is part of the game when you are trying to catch a guy from behind. Ok end of rant for now ,,, Just curious to see if anyone else feels the same way.


  2. #2
    laram0's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    I don't know if any of you saw the Cowboys/Eagles game yesterday? (The horse collar rule was created because of Roy Williams of the Cowboys and his tackle of T.O. a few years ago)

    Well in yesterdays game the Horse Collar was called again on Roy Williams when he (blatantly) horse collared Donovan McNabb. I'm surprised McNabb wasn't injured on the play.
    Last edited by laram0; -12-17-2007 at 03:01 PM.

  3. #3
    jkramsfan Guest

    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    I don't know if any of you saw the Cowboys/Eagles game yesterday? (The horse collar rule was created because of Roy Williams of the Cowboys and his tackle of T.O. a few years ago)

    Well in yesterdays game the Horse Collar was called again on Roy Williams when he (blatantly) horse collared Donovan McNabb. I'm surprised McNabb wasn't injured on the play.
    that was a horse collar on McNabb, the one in the Rams game was not,I don't mind the rule as long as it is called properly which it wasn't in the Rams game.

  4. #4
    r8rh8rmike's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    I used to hate the horse collar rule too, in fact Nick and I got into a pretty intense discussion over it, but I'm beginning to re-think my position. With players getting stronger and stronger every year, the potential for serious injuries are more prevalent and judging from the last several horse collar incidents I've seen, they often resemble a face mask being grabbed as far as their impact on a players body. For that reason, I'm thinking that it's probably a good rule.

    jk made a great point about the way the rule is enforced, which is spotty at best. Grabbing the back of a jersey is not a horse collar and should not be called as such.

  5. #5
    Keenum's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    I don't know about the horse collar. I see two sides to it:

    1. I mean, it's FOOTALL, you need to try to tackle a guy any way you can. It's sad when a running back is going to get 10 extra yards, because you have to get in a better position to try to tackle him from behind. Don't forget, the NFL did NOT have this rule with Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, Marshall Faulk, Earl Campbell, and I don't recall a controversey about it back then, even with lesser-known players. With QBs being way over protected as well, NFL football could turn in to 2-hand touchin a few years.

    2. But I can understand wanting to protect the players. The horse collar is a violent tackle when used properly (see the Roy Williams instructional video for proper technique). Then again, chop-blocking (the legal kind a lineman can do) is just as violent, but will they outlaw that? The wedge blocking on kick returns is very violent, should we outlaw that as well?

    Conclusion: You do want to protect players, but you also got to remember football was MADE to be the toughest sport in the world. Part of being a great football player is being able to withstand the pain that comes with every game. Even with all of these rules, football is still the most violent sport in the world, but probably nowhere near as tough as during the day of the 85 Bears or so. Please NFL, do not take away from this great game by making it "softer" than it should be.

  6. #6
    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiRam View Post
    I think the rule stinks big time! If you're chasing a guy and you are lucky enough to get your hand on his jersey, shoulder pad, or anything other than his facemask, and pull him down, it is a tackle. I absolutely cannot stand the rule. Yes, yes people tackled in such a fashion could be injured, but the risk of injury exists on every play. The NFL played successfully for many years without the "horse collar" rule and could do so again.

    Just curious to see if anyone else feels the same way.

    Same here, Maui. At least, that is my initial impression as well.

    Good question. While I realize that the game of football evolves into a "more civilized" sport and in parallel so does the high-tech protective equipment and the progressive rules by which it is played, I also think that the line has to be drawn in order to protect the players not from being hurt ... but from being penalized for doing their job. And IMO, such is the case with that horse-collar rule.


    In a past thread I mentioned the extreme point that pro football has reached for the $ake of protecting its main a$$et$ and inve$tment$, i.e., the $uper$tar$ that make the NFL what it is, a billion dollar bussiness.

    ...Such as keeping QBs clean and pretty at the end of the game as guarded not only by their OL but by those $illy "roughing the QB" rule$.

    Sure, there are some legitimate protective rules that indeed seriously take into account the well being of the player: the 5 and 15 yard face mask penalty, for example. I believe that is a genuine rule of progress. Certain hits on the knees deemed too vicious or premeditaded, if you will, are justified being on the list of banned plays. Fine, no problem there.


    But it is still football, PRO football mind you. Perhaps the horse collar should be instituted permanently in college and high- school but not in the NFL (granted that if the kids are not used to 'horse collaring' in school they may not use it as pros).


    Here is some of what I had posted in that other thread (by UK Ramfan 83 on WR's diving sometimes before being tackled):

    _________________________________________________

    Quote Originally Posted by UK Ramfan 83 View Post
    Whatever next? Steven Jackson, wearing his red 'no contact' jersey during a game?!?!

    Well I sure hope not! Point well taken UK. It's pro football.


    ...I'll give into the evolution of player protection in pro football. Yes, 45 years ago there were still players using helmets with no face mask at all (and the padding inside was l-o-w tech). Everything has evolved: mouth guards, uniform material, flack jacket, shoulder pads, even the black eye shades are "advanced, new and improved"! That's fine. I'm all for this type of high tech and progress.

    And no, 45 years ago automobiles did not have air bags. :x


    IMO though, the contact concept in football is different in that it should be maintained in accordance to the nature of the game without playing dirty, i.e., within rules of sportsmanship. I do not condone dirty play.

    It's no wonder some old -- and I mean old -- and retired players scoff at and redicule some of the rule$ in place to keep NFL QBs clean and pretty at the end of the season! Or RBs and WRs for that matter.

    Ray Nitschke, Deacon Jones, Dick Butkus, Bubba Smith, Tommy Nobis, Merlin Olsen, Dick 'Night Train' Lane, Larry Wilson, Lonnie Warwick, Ben Davidson, Mike Curtis, Jack Tatum ... this non-dirty dozen is just a sample of defenders that, to say the least, probably just smile and shake their head every time they hear a "roughing the passer" penalty called.

    From Chuck Bednarik to Jack Lambert, these football players gave as hard and as good as they received, for there were true monsters on the offensive side too; Larry Csonka for example (Bednarik also 'enjoyed' playing OL in addition to LB). That was the game. Hard nosed, tough, violent.


    Fast forward to the 21st century and we're debating how not to get hurt in pro football. That's okay, don't get me wrong. Pro football is that, a profession, a business. And that too is the 'nature' of the game.

    As it is, we, the 2007 Rams can surely testify what it means to lose so many players due to injury. What it means to lose on the scoreboard and in the bottom line of the organization's bank account. And as the ebb and flow of the stock market goes, so do pro sports teams, when they go through seasons with a plethora and the misery of sport-induced casualties.

    :\ Was it just our turn this year...


    *. - UK83, 'Flag Football', are you familiar with this variation?

    ________________________________________________


    Yes, yes people tackled in such a fashion could be injured, but the risk of injury exists on every play. -- MauiRam
    So true. Well said.
    Last edited by RealRam; -12-17-2007 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Format

  7. #7
    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Ray Nitschke, Deacon Jones, Dick Butkus, Bubba Smith, Tommy Nobis, Merlin Olsen, Dick 'Night Train' Lane, Larry Wilson, Lonnie Warwick, Ben Davidson, Mike Curtis, Jack Tatum ... this non-dirty dozen is just a sample of defenders that, to say the least, probably just smile and shake their head every time they hear a "roughing the passer" penalty called. -- RR

    Or everytime they hear a 'horse collar' penalty for that matter. In fact, Deacon Jones usually makes it a point to redicule some of these newer rules that almost seem anti-football.

    The infamous 'clothesline tackle' is another play that I agree should remain illegal. It's a good rule because it is more of an ill-intended blow than it is a tackle; a good rule even if the hit is accidental (similar to a below-the-belt punch in boxing).

    But not the "horse collar". ...That's too Paris Hiltonee fakeee.

  8. #8
    RealRam's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    You do want to protect players, but you also got to remember football was MADE to be the toughest sport in the world. Part of being a great football player is being able to withstand the pain that comes with every game. Even with all of these rules, football is still the most violent sport in the world, but probably nowhere near as tough as during the day of the 85 Bears or so. Please NFL, do not take away from this great game by making it "softer" than it should be. -- Keenum
    Very good, Keenum! Excellent. :bash:


    Pro hockey, rugby are up there with pro football but I agree in that the latter is more of a contact sport due the speed and consistency with which it is played. That's why the players are primarily protected with the gear they wear -- except rugby, now that is unique!

  9. #9
    tomahawk247's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    as for the horse collar

    i believe the NFL has suspended Roy Williams for one game without pay for repeated horse collar tackles after his tackle on McNabb yesterday

  10. #10
    Ram Dragoon's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    When its all boiled down, its a money issue much more so then safty issue. Millions of dollars are tied up in star athletes and its an invetment no team wishes to lose on. Further fans go to games to see stars play, not see them sit on the sidelines.

    Yet there needs to be a "revolutionary" change in equipment. The horse collar tackle only works because of the gap between the right/left shoulder pad/guard. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a neck guard and cross plate covering that gap. If the neck guard where part of the eguipment it could be made to "break away" from a strong tug. Am sure there are a few more changes in pads to but that one comes to mind

    Yet I hate rules that cuddle too much, or give advantages to one side over the other--MAINLY PASS INTERFERENCE RULEs. The brains behind many of those rules are to give the fans touchdowns. Case inpoint the resent game of the Pats/Ravens. Those set of rules gave away a game

  11. #11
    MauiRam's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Dragoon View Post
    When its all boiled down, its a money issue much more so then safty issue. Millions of dollars are tied up in star athletes and its an invetment no team wishes to lose on. Further fans go to games to see stars play, not see them sit on the sidelines.
    Yes, but fans also pay to see the big hits which occasionally will result in an injury. We can't have it both ways, as it is a violent sport by design. I am all for the rules that have been implemented to protect QBs as they are often sitting ducks, but the horse collar rule just plain sucks period ... You are right on about protective equipment needing improvement, and your idea about a neck guard and a cross plate is intriguing ...

  12. #12
    Keenum's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by tomahawk247 View Post
    as for the horse collar

    i believe the NFL has suspended Roy Williams for one game without pay for repeated horse collar tackles after his tackle on McNabb yesterday
    Yep, just saw that.
    Part of that is because he does it a lot, and I think the NFL is getting tired of him doing it over and over.

  13. #13
    RAM-BO's Avatar
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    Re: One Rule I Really Hate !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    I don't know if any of you saw the Cowboys/Eagles game yesterday? (The horse collar rule was created because of Roy Williams of the Cowboys and his tackle of T.O. a few years ago)

    Well in yesterdays game the Horse Collar was called again on Roy Williams when he (blatantly) horse collared Donovan McNabb. I'm surprised McNabb wasn't injured on the play.
    It seems that some horse collar goes on around the league, but only Williams seems to injure people. Perhaps they should only flag Roy when he does it.

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