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  1. #1
    general counsel Guest

    Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    This is for sure the most spirited debate of the off season. Lets do our best not to let the two camps of view get personal with each other as in the bulgerite vs. warnerite debacle of a year ago.

    I think that there is really no "keep him" or "trade him" answer that makes 100% sense. The devil is in the details.

    It makes no sense to me to say keep him at any cost and it makes no sense to me to say trade him because he is a bad influence or its time to "get what we can and move on".

    Bottom line-If we trade him, does it make us a better team than signing him for what he wants or continuing to play the tag game. The answer to that questions is THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

    We need to know what are we going to get specifically and how specifically is it going to affect our cap. We then compare that to what it does to our cap and our other personnel choices if we pay him what walter jones got.

    Here is my question for you guys as i do my best to fight through my love for orlando pace and my view of his enormously underated value to the team. If we get the #13 pick (alex barron), a starting right tackle (we need to know the cap value) a #3 pick (who will add depth, play special teams and be a potential future starter) AND save enough cap money to either sign bryce fisher or a safety or interior lineman, are the rams a better team?

    Your views please.

    general counsel


  2. #2
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel
    Here is my question for you guys as i do my best to fight through my love for orlando pace and my view of his enormously underated value to the team. If we get the #13 pick (alex barron), a starting right tackle (we need to know the cap value) a #3 pick (who will add depth, play special teams and be a potential future starter) AND save enough cap money to either sign bryce fisher or a safety or interior lineman, are the rams a better team?
    Immediately, no. Perhaps in the future, but Barron isn't dominant enough for me to feel comfortable about him working out as the kind of player we need him to be. He's the top rated tackle in a class that's more proud of their depth than their top-level talent.

    If the Rams execute this deal, then I can't help but think they will struggle offensively in 2005. And when I say struggle, I'm picturing those David Carr ESPN commercials where they edited out his offensive line and it was just Carr and a center lining up at the LOS - that's how important I perceive the left tackle to be in this offensive system.

    I can only hope that if Pace is traded, the Rams don't foolishly go forward thinking someone like Grant Williams or a late-signing free agent can play LT in the same system with little dropoff, at least not enough to warrant changing the gameplan. If Pace leaves, we need to rethink what we're trying to do offensively, and perhaps get rid of some of those longer-developing pass routes, as I suspect Bulger will not have many opportunities to stand in the pocket and feel comfortable that his blind side is being protected during those routes.

    Whether or not Martz will do that, I don't know. I suspect that he won't, but a part of me thinks that he'd have to realize something needs adjusted when you lose one of your best offensive players. Then again, did he make that realization whenever Chandler replaced Bulger? No. So it's up in the air.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    I don't see any way that we get the #13, a starting RT, and a third Rounder.

    At this point, I think this was just a back door move by Pace and his agents... and I think we're stuck with Pace.

    IMO, Our ability to franchise next year is lost. And we'll have the annual crap with Pace and most likely he'll get dealt after the 2005 Season.

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    rampete is offline Registered User
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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    as much as i would like to see the rams allow pace to graze at a greener pasture, if pace leaves, the rams 2005 season is shot...

    no rookie LT will hold up 16 games in the pro league...every defensive lineman they see will be the best on the opposing team and they are stronger, more tenacious and quicker than all the collegiate linemen they have ever encountered...which is why most rookie lineman need one or two years to adapt, especially in a martz pass happy system...

    come to think of it, pace has to be considered the best in the league because no other LT has to deal with so much pass rush...ogden is in a run-first system and walter jones doesn't see as much passrush in his west-coast short pass system

    the FO will stand pat and play pace one more season...pace is not dumb enough to hold out the season with $8.5 mil at stake...

  5. #5
    general counsel Guest

    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    Tony, what do you mean when you say "Our ability to franchise next year is lost?" We only lose the right to use the franchise tag if we sign pace between march 15th and some date in the mid summer, not simply by not signing him.

    general counsel

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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    Lets do our best not to let the two camps of view get personal with each other as in the bulgerite vs. warnerite debacle of a year ago.
    Trust me, that ain't gonna happen over a Lineman.

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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    My assumption in that statement is that if he doesn't sign by tomorrow that PACE WON"T sign with the rams... Being in Houston is showing his eagerness to move on.. So, if he doesn't get signed, we'll lose the Franchise Tag for next year..

    Correct me if I'm wrong

  8. #8
    general counsel Guest

    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    Tony, that is not correct. We only lose the use of the tag for next year (in fact we would lose the tag for the length of the contract he signed) if he signed a contract long term with the rams after march 16 at 4pm and before some date i believe in july or august of this year. For example, when pace did not sign long term by the deadline last year, we did not lose the use of the tag for this year since we did not sign him long term during the blackout period over the spring and summer.

    Here is the interesting question that you have me thinking about that maybe nick can help with.

    What if next week someone signs pace to an offer sheet and we match, rather than take the two #1 picks (low probability, but worth mentioning). Does that wipe out our use of the tag for the duration of the contract as well. I am not sure on that one.

    general counsel

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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    I'm pretty sure matching an offer sheet would not negate our ability to use the franchise tag, but I'm not 100% on that.
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    The franchise tag

    IF we sign Pace long-term, we get some immediate relief for the salary cap, but a long-term commitment that will eventually catch up to us. . . and a ton of dead money if something happens to him.

    IF we franchise Pace and keep him, we pay $8 mil or so for his services ($500,000 per game!) with no commitment after this year, and no risk of dead money.

    IF we franchise Pace and lose him, we get TWO first-rounders and a whole lot of cap money.

    IF we entertain trades, the offers will be low, because Pace's salary demands are high. Why should a team give up so much in draft picks just for the privilege of spending that kind of money? The only exception to this is if the team is trading away its own problem child. Sometimes it works (e.g. Marshall Faulk), usually it doesn't.

    Pace is in his prime. He will be NFL calibre for some time barring injury. But he will not get any better. I think the franchise tag is a good deal. He won't hold out past the beginning of the season because he will want that big paycheck. If he does, his value to other teams goes down because he will be viewed as trouble. This means less for the Rams in a trade. It also means less for Pace in negotiations. Unless of course a Snyder type just gets really stupid, and we can do nothing about that.

  11. #11
    Tony Soprano's Avatar
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    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel
    Tony, that is not correct. We only lose the use of the tag for next year (in fact we would lose the tag for the length of the contract he signed) if he signed a contract long term with the rams after march 16 at 4pm and before some date i believe in july or august of this year. For example, when pace did not sign long term by the deadline last year, we did not lose the use of the tag for this year since we did not sign him long term during the blackout period over the spring and summer.

    Here is the interesting question that you have me thinking about that maybe nick can help with.

    What if next week someone signs pace to an offer sheet and we match, rather than take the two #1 picks (low probability, but worth mentioning). Does that wipe out our use of the tag for the duration of the contract as well. I am not sure on that one.

    general counsel
    Thank you for the clarification.

    - T -

  12. #12
    general counsel Guest

    Re: Orlando Pace-the devil is in the details

    Anytime tony, you have been a spirited addition to the board, great having you.

    general counsel

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