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  1. #16
    Roy G. Biv's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    I'm calling BS. This is all just fluff and rationalization. The pick was a reach. Period. Saunders has had the likes of Dante Hall, Randel El and Santana Moss and none have been particularly effective in making his pass offense strike fear in defensive backfields.

    He may or may not turn out to be a good player for the Rams but where they picked him and who they passed on is the issue. All it really looks like is that the Rams couldn't hold their water and reached for a player that they built up in their imaginations.
    That's it ladies! Turn off the lights and go home. The debate is over. Some random fan has declared the Avery pick as fluff, rationalization, and a reach. Then used the word Period so that's all there is to it.

    Yes, Saunders had Hall, Randel El, and Moss. He didn't draft any of them though. And in fact, Moss' only pro bowl appearance was working under Saunders.

    But who else did he have? He also had Wes Chandler, Willie Davis, Stephone Paige, Eddie Kennison, and the already mentioned Santana Moss. Each of them did little elsewhere, but had their best years under Saunders.

    And who has Saunders drafted? Anthony Miller, Quinn Early, Joe Horn, and of course Torry Holt.

    So if Al Saunders feels Donnie Avery is the best WR in this draft for the Rams, I'll take his opinion over some random guy who is a Rams fan one day and not the next. Period.

    "I'm not going to hide my opinions. They're coming to you between 7000-4000 Angstroms for all the world to see. Oh yes, you will be enlightened."

  2. #17
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    TX was it Eddie Kennison or the Rams that disappointed. I thought Kennison went on and played well in KC.
    Hmmm, who was his offensive coordinator during that time in Kansas City?

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    I'm calling BS. This is all just fluff and rationalization. The pick was a reach. Period.
    ...and the reasoning is? Or is it now enough to just say "Period." at the end to make it true?

    There have been numerous reports to suggest Avery's value in a weak receiver class looked to be appropriate for where he was taken. Is there evidence, outside of pundit rankings or media talking heads that incorrectly predicted the order of receivers to come off the board, to suggest otherwise?

    I'm more than willing to listen to and consider alternate opinions on any topic, as long as the person providing it comes to the table with some support for their opinion. So let's hear it!
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  3. #18
    Dominating D's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    I'm calling BS. This is all just fluff and rationalization. The pick was a reach. Period. Saunders has had the likes of Dante Hall, Randel El and Santana Moss and none have been particularly effective in making his pass offense strike fear in defensive backfields.

    He may or may not turn out to be a good player for the Rams but where they picked him and who they passed on is the issue. All it really looks like is that the Rams couldn't hold their water and reached for a player that they built up in their imaginations.
    Are you serious? Saunders was the OC for many years in KC and during that span KC offense was rank amoung the best year in and year out. He spent 1 year in DC with the skins and your going to evaluate his body of work for that year only?

    Now that sounds like some BS......

    Avery may not be the best WR in the draft only time will tell but would you and the other Ram fans be upset if Avery plays a role that will allow other players to succeed due to his blazing speed.


    Go Rams

  4. #19
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Its clear we wanted Avery, even the people calling him a reach know that. But the suggestions that we could have traded down and got him are a bit far fetched. We would have had to find someone who wanted to trade up to where we were in the second round, but also who wouldnt be so far down the order that Avery would be long gone by the time we picked.

  5. #20
    rams 24/7 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    I am very satisfied with this pick. All I'm saying is he would have been there in the 3rd round and we could have got a bigger NAME & NEED with our 2rd pick. but personaly I always thought he was in the top 5 WR in this years draft. he had 90 reception for almost 1,500 yards last year which is better then any WR in this years draft.

  6. #21
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by rams 24/7 View Post
    All I'm saying is he would have been there in the 3rd round
    you dont know that at all

  7. #22
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by ram24/7
    All I'm saying is he would have been there in the 3rd round and we could have got a bigger NAME & NEED with our 2rd pick.
    And saying that of course prompts a few questions:

    1. How do you know he would have been there in the 3rd? There were 10 receivers taken before the Rams 3rd round pick. What makes us think Avery would not have been one of them?

    2. Do we really rely on how big the receiver's name is? Here some other BIG name receivers: Chad Jackson, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Rashaun Woods, Charles Rogers, Ashley Lelie, Koren Robinson, etc....... Is a BIG name really something to count on when selecting a prospect?

    Here's some other BIG name receivers:

    Newark Tornadoes, 1930, WR - Theodore Stanislaus Andrulewicz
    Portsmouth Spartans, 1930, WR - Koester Lucius Christensen
    Pittsburgh Steelers, '87-'88, WR - William Joseph Clinkscales
    Cincinatti Bengals, 1993, WR - Allen Justice DeGraffenreid
    Decateur Staleys, 1920, WR - Andrew Joseph Feichtinger
    Providence Steam Rollers, 1926, WR - Vernon Bertram Hagenbuckle
    Chicago Bears, 1934, WR - August Nicholas Mastrogany
    Tampa Bay Bucs, 1987, WR - Stanley Cornelius Shakespeare
    New Orleans Saints, 1968, WR - David John Szymakowski
    San Fran whiners, '96-'98, WR - Iheanyi C. Uwaezuoke
    San Fran whiners, 1969, WR - William Walter Wondolowski
    Buffalo All Americans, '20-'27, WR - Adolph Frederick "Swede" Youngstrom
    ...and of course, the best BIG name receiver in today's game......Touraj "T.J." Houshmandzadeh

    Those are my favorite BIG name receivers.

    3. What other receiver provides more NEED to this team than Donnie Avery? And how do we know?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #23
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    I wish I could give rep points but everytime I click on the scale nothing happens.

    However, that was funny.

  9. #24
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    I wish I could give rep points but everytime I click on the scale nothing happens.

    However, that was funny.
    Knowing that I can make your Texas day a little brighter is better than points anyway.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #25
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    All I'm saying is he would have been there in the 3rd round and we could have got a bigger NAME & NEED with our 2rd pick.
    Thank you.

    With all of the actual areas of need the Rams have, the first pick of the 2nd round is spent on a slot receiver? One that likely would have been there in the 3rd or later(according to Mayock, who I happen to think is pretty reliable). It's true that he might have been gone but, so what?

    The Rams weren't, and aren't, a slot receiver away from being a good team with depth. There are just too many positions that could have been addressed with the 33rd pick in the draft. He may become a good NFL receiver but I would have been a lot happier with an OL, DL, LB, CB, etc. over another offensive skill position that isn't even going to be on the field all the time.

    Anyone who cares to be honest with themselves would admit that they would rip this pick to shreds if it was any other team but the Rams.

  11. #26
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    With all of the actual areas of need the Rams have, the first pick of the 2nd round is spent on a slot receiver?
    I doubt the Rams see Avery as only a slot receiver. He'll likely play immediate in the slot this year, but they see starting potential in him.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    One that likely would have been there in the 3rd or later(according to Mayock, who I happen to think is pretty reliable).
    Scott Wright of NFL Draft Countdown said in early April that Avery wouldn't make it out of the second round. Russ Lande in his evaluation of Avery called the guy a late first or early second round pick. The Houston Chronicle reported that multiple GMs felt Avery graded out in the 20-40 range. Sources close to the Buccaneers said Avery was a consideration for Tampa's first round pick, 20th overall. Rick Gosselin, widely known for his accurate draft information since he bases it on what he hears from NFL teams, had Avery as his 43rd ranked player.

    There's a multitude of evidence to suggest the guy was not going to be there in the third. Countering it by saying Mayock disagrees isn't an entirely convincing argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    The Rams weren't, and aren't, a slot receiver away from being a good team with depth. There are just too many positions that could have been addressed with the 33rd pick in the draft. He may become a good NFL receiver but I would have been a lot happier with an OL, DL, LB, CB, etc. over another offensive skill position that isn't even going to be on the field all the time.
    Well for one, I think in an Al Saunders offensive scheme, the slot receiver will probably see more time on the field than you'd think.

    Secondly, no OL was worth the pick there after the run of offensive tackles in the first round. Same could be argued for DL, especially after we went DE with our first round pick. The Rams' need at LB is for an OLB, and the value wasn't there at that position either. CB is arguable, but I don't see that as nearly as big a need as WR considering we have a pretty solid group in Brown, Hill, Bartell, and Wade. Most people aren't even satisfied with the guy starting opposite of Holt at WR, let alone the depth there.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    Anyone who cares to be honest with themselves would admit that they would rip this pick to shreds if it was any other team but the Rams.
    Ah, the coup de grâce! Always nice when someone can conclude their argument by implying those that disagree are simply homers.
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  12. #27
    Dominating D's Avatar
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Nick,

    I was going to respond but you covered all bases and did a great job.

    Nice post Nick...

  13. #28
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    Cool Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    If Henry Ellard had a hand in makng this pick then this guy must be special as far as i am concerned. Man i wish Henry still was young and had it like he used to, he was amazing to watch! Avery could turn out to be even better than Hakim was, all we can do is wait and see what happens. i just hope our offense gets back to scoring alot of points, after the GSOT era we could use some imagination again and stop playing "scared" on offense!

  14. #29
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    optimistic....I am, you are.....we all are.....I hope, I hope, I hope!

  15. #30
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Ah, the coup de grâce! Always nice when someone can conclude their argument by implying those that disagree are simply homers.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying anything. This thread is the absolute definition of homerism. Optimism is fine but denying this player in this spot is anything more than a reach is just a large glass of blue and gold kool-aid.

    Saunders' offenses have never been dependent on the slot receiver and there are way too many question marks about Avery to assume he will be the #1 or #2 in a few years.

    I mean, you guys are seriously arguing for a luxury pick for a 3-13 team? Of course everyone hopes he turns out to be a huge success but ANY WR, especially a slot receiver for the 2008 Rams at 33 is a bad pick. First and Second round picks have to be guys that will improve the team and be on the field.

    Too many people get wrapped up in believing that the Rams can't stretch the field because they don't have speed at WR. They can't stretch the field because they can't pass block long enough for Jesse Owens to get down the field.

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