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  1. #31
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying anything. This thread is the absolute definition of homerism. Optimism is fine but denying this player in this spot is anything more than a reach is just a large glass of blue and gold kool-aid.
    ...AGAIN, since Scott Wright, Russ Lande, more than one NFL GM (per the Houston Chronicle), TFY draft (citing sources close to the Buccaneers), and Rick Gosselin all have made statements about Avery's value as a second rounder if not a potential first rounder, this does not seem like a bunch of Rams fans drinking the Kool-Aid and going against the world.

    If there weren't numerous sources that suggest Avery's value was appropriate for where he was selected, I'd be more open to seeing your point. But since there are numerous outside sources that have reported on his value being within the range of when he was selected, I don't think your conclusion is all that accurate.


  2. #32
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying anything. This thread is the absolute definition of homerism. Optimism is fine but denying this player in this spot is anything more than a reach is just a large glass of blue and gold kool-aid.
    Because you say so, right?

    Here's what I consider to be the bottom line. We got the guy we wanted, who purports to fulfill a role that is similar to other great recievers of Saunders coached teams. Clearly, the coaching staff found that better value for what we were trying to do, for the role we were trying to fill, could not be had elsewhere. I don't see why this is so widely debated? Sure, we could have gone with the "brand name" reciever, but if he's not going to fit our system as well as the coaches think Avery is, then why do it? They, clearly, saw him as the best reciever available. I consider their opinion more valid than any stay-at-home scout.

    Saunders' offenses have never been dependent on the slot receiver and there are way too many question marks about Avery to assume he will be the #1 or #2 in a few years.
    Look at the compaisons made. Torry Holt. Az Hakim. Isaac Bruce. Santana Moss. There's not a bad "Al Saunders Offense" apple in that bunch. Besides, what recievers don't have questions? I think it's obvious that St. Louis picked the reciever who they considered had the least question marks for what they were trying to achieve.

    I mean, you guys are seriously arguing for a luxury pick for a 3-13 team? Of course everyone hopes he turns out to be a huge success but ANY WR, especially a slot receiver for the 2008 Rams at 33 is a bad pick. First and Second round picks have to be guys that will improve the team and be on the field.
    But it's only a luxury pick by your definition. To run an Al Saunders offense, there's a legitimate need for a slot reciever. Holt's contract expires in two years, Bennett has been a disappointment so far, so I don't think you can call him a "luxury pick" and justify it by waxing lyrical about his "question marks" (his route-running? I'm sure this can be improved playing alongside Tory Holt. Look what happened to Kevin Curtis) and the impact he purports to have without considering the system he's going to play in.

    Too many people get wrapped up in believing that the Rams can't stretch the field because they don't have speed at WR. They can't stretch the field because they can't pass block long enough for Jesse Owens to get down the field.
    Sure, but have we not attempted to adress that area of need? Jacob Bell signs a huge contract, we find great value in Greco and Scheuning? I can understand that you can never have enough depth along the OL, but the value there was far from the value at WR. Clearly, Avery was the Rams most valued player, regardless of position, at that point in time.

  3. #33
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Well, the Rams did need a WR mokler....I just think Burton in the fourth round is going to be a stud more than Avery.

    However, I hope they both exceed expectations.

  4. #34
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Has anyone noticed in the middle of the "half Rams Park wanted Dorsey, the other half wanted Long" debate, there appears to be no debate whatsoever about the warroom being split over Avery and some other receiver?

    Is it possible, and I'm just spitballin' here, that maybe just maybe the fact that the Avery debate appears to be limited to all of us accountants, plumbers, teachers, truck drivers, doctors, ditch diggers, etc. and NOT the professional football folks would indicate there is little question that Avery is exactly the receiver to fit the current system?
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  5. #35
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    I was surprise when the Rams pick Avery and my first instinct was it was a mistake. As I became for familar with Avery the more comfortable I feel about the pick.

    If a couple of other WR had been picked in the 1st round I think the media/fan negative feedback would have been much less. Since Avery was selected 1st at his position just about surprised everyone ....

    However, I do not believe anyone can expect to know if Avery would of been available in round 3.

    So if this is your guy then what choice is available to the Rams? A possible trade??? This assumes the Rams can find an offer and then they have to sit and hope no one takes their guy.

    Avery is a fast guy on a fast turf. I would not expect huge numbers this upcoming year but he should help out in the slot and on special teams.

    Addressing other needs and more value at other positions. I think Nick has add... this very well.

  6. #36
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    I mean, you guys are seriously arguing for a luxury pick for a 3-13 team? Of course everyone hopes he turns out to be a huge success but ANY WR, especially a slot receiver for the 2008 Rams at 33 is a bad pick. First and Second round picks have to be guys that will improve the team and be on the field.
    a luxury pick? are you kidding me? haha wow, yep its a total luxury pick when you only have 2 recievers on your roster capable of doing damage. saunders runs alot of 3 WR sets, so he WILL be on the team and he WILL i,rpove the team. Torry holt cant play forever, we lost bruce, so you have to start grooming someone now. avery more than likely would not have been there in the 3rd round, if you think about it you may realize that 10 teams picked recievers in the 2nd. so avery more than likely would have gotten picked.

    a rookie corner would not have started so according to you, since hed be the third or 4th CB he wouldent make an impact. an there were no quality OT's on the board, so none of them would have made an immidaite impact. we adressed DL in the first round and we dont exactly have a need for it now, so that pick really doesnt make sense. LB, okay Lofton would be the only one in the 2nd round worthy of our pick, i believe he plays MLB, so why draft him? dizon would have been a "reach" if we were going by your standards.

    can you name me a few of these "question marks" about avery? the only one i knnow is his route running isnt the greatest, but that can be improved on.

    just because mayock says he would have been there in the third, you believe him over many other multiple sources? mayock doesnt have a clue whos on temas draft boards, he is making an educated guess on what players teams will pick.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Iam glad for the pick , i had the RAMS taking him #65 in the 3rd , but in light of facts that sway the FO's to give us their take on things and their info , the RAMS made the ABSOLUTE CORRECT pick in rd 2.

    Both AVERY and BURTON i wanted the RAMS to target . I think there draft was solid top to bottom , and if DEVANEY was their when LINEHAN came in we wouldn't have picked anywhere near the 2nd pick .

    This is an under-appreciated draft class and i think a very under-estimated group at that . don't be surprised if the rams pull 2 of the best O-LINEMEN out of this draft ( GRECO - SCHUENNING 0 and two of the dest and under-valued WR's in this draft in AVERY and BURTON .

    EVERY pick was value based for them and i think they made more than 4 STEALS this year , BURTON - GRECO - SCHUENNING - VABORA and i think AVERY might just top all the WR's this year.

    I also think that LIMAS SWEED, ( who i would have liked , but didn't fit , luxury pick .) went to the best team to use his skills at PITTSBURG.

  8. #38
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Its really not all that difficult to figure out why Avery was the top rated WR in the eyes of the Rams.

    Premise: The Rams wanted a WR who could stretch the field.

    Fact: Avery was one of the top 2-3 fastest WRs available.

    Now, who were the other fast WRs?

    DeSean Jackson. He is at least as fast as Avery (at least in time trials wearing shorts and a t-shirt). Avery is bigger, and was more productive in college. I had Jackson slightly ahead of Avery, but I did not have access to a final criteria - character. Jackson is reportedly a "me" guy. Avery, in the eyes of Rams (and his interviews seem consistent with this notion) is a "we" guy.

    Andre Caldwell. Not nearly as productive as Avery in college. I don't know that many teams would have rated Caldwell above Avery.

    Will Franklin, Dexter Jackson (small school prospect), Eddie Royal Ditto.

    Devin Thomas. He is another guy I would have been happy with, but I don't think he is nearly as fast as Avery (he is bigger). He was a guy that, before the combine, was believed to have decent, but not great speed. In other words, when people watched his game films, he didn't seem all that fast. His timed 40 (4.4) opened eyes. Still, sometimes a 40 time does not equate to "football speed." I have no problem with passing on Thomas for Avery.

    Keenan Burton. Man I wish we took that guy--- OH, WAIT... WE DID!

  9. #39
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Let's see, the Rams needed a WR, they planned to take one with their second round pick, Avery was the guy at the top of their list, he was available, they took him. Sounds like a pretty simple concept to me that played out perfectly for the Rams.

  10. #40
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    The Rams "targeting" a WR in the 2nd round is the whole problem. As an example, the Patriots can get a guy like Wes Welker for a 4th(or was it 6th?) rounder and economically improve their team.

    Quick, who was the slot receiver in KC that helped them score 500 points per year? How 'bout Washington?

    Yes, in two years the Rams will probably need to replace Holt but right now, they have a ton of money, so much that the "HAD" to play hardball and lose Bruce, tied up in their #1 and #2 WR's, not to mention Randy McMichael and Dante Hall. Just because they went out and signed a decent Guard in the offseason I don't think they are making wise decisions. Since 2002 the line has been weak and has only gotten older and somehow the Rams can't see it.

    Why is it such a hard thing for them to draft some quality youth in that area? A 2nd round o-lineman that could at least provide depth throughout his contract would have been a lot better value than a new toy. WR's are way too much of a crap shoot and taking a guy that high in the 2nd from a smallish school is just plain risky when it comes to that draft pick.

  11. #41
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    can you name me a few of these "question marks" about avery? the only one i knnow is his route running isnt the greatest, but that can be improved on.
    Yeah, route running is no big deal when it comes to the Rams. <sarcasm>

    Also, if it's so easy to fix why is it such a valued attribute to the few who are truly good at it?

    Again, I hope I'm wrong about all of this but whether or not I turn out to be, the Rams are (still) taking chances with draft picks and that is something that I want to see change. Maybe I just missed it but at the end of '07 was there a big outcry for a slot receiver by anyone?

  12. #42
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    Yeah, route running is no big deal when it comes to the Rams. <sarcasm>

    Also, if it's so easy to fix why is it such a valued attribute to the few who are truly good at it?

    Again, I hope I'm wrong about all of this but whether or not I turn out to be, the Rams are (still) taking chances with draft picks and that is something that I want to see change. Maybe I just missed it but at the end of '07 was there a big outcry for a slot receiver by anyone?

    i didnt say it wasnt a big deal, but it can be imroved upon because of our personnel(ellard and holt) so what are the other question marks?
    The entire nfl draft is taking a chance!!! no matter who you take, noone is going to be a garunteed star!! i just read something that said the ***** were interested in avery and also had him atop their draft board, martz said they would draft him.
    Built RAM tough

  13. #43
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    also, whats a lineman in the 2nd round that was worthy of taking? there were 7 OTs taken in the first., there wasnt much value at OT
    Built RAM tough

  14. #44
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Avery has the best of one thing that the other WR's lack: speed. You can't coach speed. If he had come out when the WR's were solid, he probably would have dropped to the third round. Trust me, he's no Bruce or Holt. However, he was fortunate in that no WR's in this draft stood out from another. It probably was (for talent evaluation purposes) one of the weakest WR group in a long time. Timing is everything, from money to a honey.

  15. #45
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    Re: Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan had the following exchange on NFL radio

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman View Post
    The Rams "targeting" a WR in the 2nd round is the whole problem. As an example, the Patriots can get a guy like Wes Welker for a 4th(or was it 6th?) rounder and economically improve their team.
    Actually, the Patriots gave up a 2nd round pick and a 7th round pick to get Welker (don't you hate it when those pesky facts get in the way of your rant?)

    A 2nd round o-lineman that could at least provide depth throughout his contract would have been a lot better value than a new toy.
    Not in this draft. If you were paying attention, there was a huge run on OTs in Round 1 that resulted in some projected 2nd round guys (S.Baker, D.Brown) going in the first. The value in this draft at pick #33 was at WR, as EVERY PLAYER AT THAT POSITION WAS STILL AVAILABLE. The Rams took the one they liked the best.

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