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  1. #16
    general counsel's Avatar
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    i dont disagree with you on fletch mr z, but i think at the time, we were much more cap strapped given the extensions for bruce, faulk and warner with holt coming up and pace looming. Also, that was much bigger money in 2002 than it was later as the cap went up. Either way, i agree with your general view that we should have kept fletch, the defense was never really the same after we lost his intensity and the jamie duncan experiment was beyond a miserable failure, something that for some reason lovie never got the blame for even though duncan was his guy.

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  2. #17
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Interesting stat is if you compare solo tackles Glover and Jenkins would be ahead of Pickett last year. Also Pickett went to Greenbay and there yards against the run went up by .1 yards per carry. In other words there DL without Pickett the year before he got there gave up less yards per carry. So even the fact that he got all those tackles don't mean he helped improve the overall run stopping ability of the DL. Also he had zero sacks all last year. I am not saying he is bad but Zero sacks and the team he went to the run defense average yards per carry went up by .1. The tackles stat can be misleading especially considering a good portion of his are assists and not solo tackles. Did he tackle them after a gain and did he take on multiple blockers allowing the LBs to come up and make the plays. I believe he is an average DT I would not call Pickett a great DT. Lets not forget the Rams run D sucked when he was here as well not as bad as with Kennedy but it still sucked and he has to get some of the credit for that also. Plus Greenbays yards against the run went up not down with Pickett. I like the guy but he is not a great DT. He is a solid average DT IMO.
    Last edited by RamsSB99; -06-19-2007 at 12:52 AM.

  3. #18
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel View Post
    i dont disagree with you on fletch mr z, but i think at the time, we were much more cap strapped given the extensions for bruce, faulk and warner with holt coming up and pace looming. Also, that was much bigger money in 2002 than it was later as the cap went up. Either way, i agree with your general view that we should have kept fletch, the defense was never really the same after we lost his intensity and the jamie duncan experiment was beyond a miserable failure, something that for some reason lovie never got the blame for even though duncan was his guy.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel

    We agree on all the essentials on this, in terms of what Fletcher meant to the team and so on.

    However. Until i looked the numbers up myself, I too thought a Fletcher deal would have squeezed the cap.

    I found out that's not true. (Bear in mind that the major reason we BELIEVE Fletcher would have pushed the cap is cause the Rams kept saying so. The numbers don't back them.)

    Duncan's cap hit for 2002 was 1.25 million.

    With the deal Fletcher signed with Buffalo (which presumably tells us what would have kept him in St. Louis) the cap hit for 2002 was..........1.35 million.

    Duncan and Fletcher basically cost the same in cap terms for 2002.

  4. #19
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by z.nrd View Post
    He was signable. The Rams had the cap space. In fact they probably should have extended him a year early. He was a restricted free agent the year before and they basically kept him on a one year deal for 1.5 million; ... better to have extended him then.
    Don't worry, we have Jamie Duncan. All is well.

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  5. #20
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    :l


    Regardless, if the Rams made a mistake in letting him go, there are some certainties as far as he is concerned.

    1) He is gone

    2) He is not coming back

    3) He is definately not and never will be a Merlin Olsen.


    Personally, I don't remember him standing out or dominating one single game while he was with the Rams. That is not to say it never occured, rather I simply do not recall, if it did indeed occur.

    Was he ever double teamed that often? Little gets double teamed on a regular basis. Taking that into account, I think Little's tackle stats are much more impressive than are pickett's. It serves no purpose to even begin to compare sack stats between the two and I'm fairly certain you'd agree with that.

    Let's look to the future, rather than dwell on the past, shall we? Could it really hurt to do so?

    I think Adam Carriker is a very positive addition and quite possibly bodes a bright future for the Rams defensive front.

    He reminds me quite a bit of a young, modern day, Merlin Olsen. Look closely and you might begin to get the the same picture. If nothing else, it could help to take your mind off an average player that is gone and not coming back.



    :l

  6. #21
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    :l


    Regardless, if the Rams made a mistake in letting him go, there are some certainties as far as he is concerned.

    1) He is gone

    2) He is not coming back

    3) He is definately not and never will be a Merlin Olsen.


    Personally, I don't remember him standing out or dominating one single game while he was with the Rams. That is not to say it never occured, rather I simply do not recall, if it did indeed occur.

    Was he ever double teamed that often? Little gets double teamed on a regular basis. Taking that into account, I think Little's tackle stats are much more impressive than are pickett's. It serves no purpose to even begin to compare sack stats between the two and I'm fairly certain you'd agree with that.

    Let's look to the future, rather than dwell on the past, shall we? Could it really hurt to do so?

    I think Adam Carriker is a very positive addition and quite possibly bodes a bright future for the Rams defensive front.

    He reminds me quite a bit of a young, modern day, Merlin Olsen. Look closely and you might begin to get the the same picture. If nothing else, it could help to take your mind off an average player that is gone and not coming back.



    :l
    It's fair to assess things.

    And in fact, all anyone ever really said about Pickett was that he was a pretty solid NT.

    Which automatically makes him light years better than Jimmy Kennedy.

    It was a mistake to let RP get away and to keep JK instead.

    Teams make mistakes. It's fair to name those mistakes. I think letting RP walk was a mistake.

  7. #22
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by z.nrd View Post
    It's fair to assess things.

    And in fact, all anyone ever really said about Pickett was that he was a pretty solid NT.

    Which automatically makes him light years better than Jimmy Kennedy.

    It was a mistake to let RP get away and to keep JK instead.

    Teams make mistakes. It's fair to name those mistakes. I think letting RP walk was a mistake.
    Some people just won't let the Pickett thing die they talk about it at least three times a month. The guy was an average DT at best. His 0 sacks was well below average last year. His solos tackles were less then Glovers and Jenkins. His assists where higher then Glover and Jenkins. As Ferter pointed out I don't recall him ever dominating a game when he played with the Rams. Maybe he did none really stick out in my mind. 0 sacks last year and Greenbay gave up .1 yards more per carry then without him. No one brings up Pickett's name and bashes him around here and yet some bring up his name all the time. They bring up his name in support of him before anyone even bashes him. I am with Ferter on this one lets move on. I am more excited about Carriker then I was with Pickett. Maybe Carriker will get 1 sack this year. Which will exceed Picketts total from last year. Maybe he will take on a double team also. I don't give a care about Pickett he is gone. How about talking about our players or people we can bring in to improve our team.

  8. #23
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Let me sum this post up.

    Pickett = Not A Ram = Gone = History = Not Coming Back = I Dont Care About Him
    Carriker = Ram = Present = 1st Round Rookie = Future = Starter = I Do Care About Him

    Jenkins = Not A Ram = On the trading block = On one of the better run Ds = Interesting DT next to Carriker

    Wrotten = Ram = Present = 1st Round Potential = Future = I Do Care About Him

  9. #24
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter View Post
    Regardless, if the Rams made a mistake in letting him go, there are some certainties as far as he is concerned.

    1) He is gone

    2) He is not coming back

    3) He is definately not and never will be a Merlin Olsen.
    I agree. No matter what anyone thinks of Pickett, good or bad he is gone. This is year number two without Pickett, it's time to look ahead and hope for the best with who we have right now.

    I also want to apply the same sort of thought to Jenkins because his name has been bounced around since before the draft. Now unless we happen to make a deal for Jenkins and he becomes a Ram, it's time to move on again and hope for the best with what we have.

    Here's to looking ahead to a better defense this year. :l
    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce
    The backhanded compliments about Austin Davis are amusing.

  10. #25
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel View Post
    A cornerstone of my point regarding pickett is and has always been threefold

    1) He is a LOT better than people give him credit for.
    2) He was 100x better than anything else we had and
    3) This was not a break the bank or kill the cap kind of london fletcher or dre bly like situation where management felt that we couldnt match because the other team simply overpaid by too much money.
    I basically agree that he was better than anyone else we had and the team he did sign with didn't offer an outrageous deal, but I'm not as enthused about the stats. As TekeRam pointed out, tackling stats can be misleading, especially for a nose tackle. The thing is you shouldn't let talent go that you can't replace.

  11. #26
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    His 0 sacks was well below average last year.
    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    0 sacks last year
    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    Maybe Carriker will get 1 sack this year. Which will exceed Picketts total from last year.
    I'm curious, how many sacks do you think a nose tackle is supposed to get per season? You keep bringing it up as if Pickett is supposed to be on the same level as three technique tackles such as Warren Sapp or Cory Redding. But look at some of the other 4-3 nose tackles around the league:

    Kendrick Clancy: 11 games, 1 sack
    Barry Cofield: 16 games, 1.5 sacks
    Kelly Gregg: 16 games, 3.5 sacks
    Grady Jackson: 16 games, 0 sacks
    Tank Johnson: 14 games, 3.5 sacks
    Hollis Thomas: 12 games, 3.5 sacks
    Keith Traylor: 14 games, 4 sacks
    Pat Williams: 16 games, 1 sack

    Pickett's lack of sacks in 2006 isn't good, but it isn't necessarily bad either. As a nose tackle, his job description isn't the same as other pass rushing interior linemen.
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  12. #27
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Kendrick Clancy: 11 games, 1 sack
    Barry Cofield: 16 games, 1.5 sacks
    Kelly Gregg: 16 games, 3.5 sacks
    Grady Jackson: 16 games, 0 sacks
    Tank Johnson: 14 games, 3.5 sacks
    Hollis Thomas: 12 games, 3.5 sacks
    Keith Traylor: 14 games, 4 sacks
    Pat Williams: 16 games, 1 sack
    Seven of the 8 on your list had more sacks last year then Pickett. At least they got one. The main reason Jackson did not is because he would need an oxygen mask if he ran that far The whole point was he does not get to the quarterback and his tackles can be misleading. His solo tackles are less then a lot of DTs (Glover and Jenkins). His assists are high meaning he grabbed a guy that was being tackled. Does this mean that he was able to do this because he was not engaging other players or is it because they always ran at him knowing they could gain yards. I don't know the answer you would have to review each and everyone. Assisted tackles are misleading IMO and solo tackles can be as well. When he went to Greenbay there average yards per carry went up by .1 yards per carry not down. If he was as great as some think he is you would think he would help improve there run D. Also when he was here our run D was bad not as bad as with Kennedy but it was bad. I don't have anything against the guy but he is not great he is average at best.

    Pickett = Average Player = Not Great

  13. #28
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel View Post
    go look on nfl.com is where i get my stats. Two years in a row. I think your comment "no way did pickett ever have 65 tackles" is flat out wrong, according to nfl.com. Look under the player index, i didnt make it up.

    The entire purpose of my post was to hit the group up with facts, the facts according to nfl.com, rather than relying on people on this boards perspective and perception.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel

    Tackles and assists are two different things, to me atleast. I wasn't talking about the two combined, which is the figure you're looking at. Assists don't tell me how good aplayer is.

  14. #29
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    I appreciate that some people dont want to talk about pickett anymore and dont want to read about him. That is certainly their perogative. My suggestion is that you dont waste your time reading the threads or responding to them. No one is forcing you to do so.

    For those same people, i wish i had a nickel for everytime someone mentions our drafting history and guys we should go after that are on other teams. The idea that the only thing that we should talk about is the present and guys presently on the roster does not make sense at all to me. What does make sense to me is that each individual member on this board has the right to participate in whatever he wants to participate in. If you dont like the topic, ignore it, why criticize others for discussing it. Tell me how it has any impact of any kind on you to see others talking about something that you dont want to talk about and dont care about?

    The reason to look at the past is that it defines how we learn from it and avoid the same mistakes in the future. The powers of revisionist history in life and on this board are truly amazing. Our defense against the run has been awful. How we got this way is relevant to how we fix it. Again, if you dont like that, just ignore the thread.

    If you want to think pickett is average, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. No problem at all agreeing to disagree. The rationale that he didnt dominate a game when he was here when the rest of the defense was beyond awful isnt a convincing argument to me, especially when a lot of his job is to tie up blockers so others can make tackles, not whiff time and time again as per claiborne, arch etc. Measuring sacks for a defensive tackle is 10x less relevant than assists in my opinion.

    One last thing. Lets say pickett was average. On that basis, what would you call kennedy and lewis? Did it make sense to you to let a 26 year old average defensive tackle go when we had absolutely nothing else that was proven at all and the money to keep him was average at best for a starter at the position? when all you have is unproven and below average crap, average isnt so bad. If our defense was average last year, we would have been deep in the playoffs

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    Last edited by general counsel; -06-19-2007 at 02:34 PM. Reason: revision


  15. #30
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    Re: pickett only had one good year......

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsSB99 View Post
    If he was as great as some think he is you would think
    I never said he was great, but I don't think it's a strong argument to criticize a nose tackle for not getting on the stat sheet specifically in sacks. I'm not sure that type of argument actually fits with the job description of the nose tackle itself.
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