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Thread: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by bradwill View Post
    I subscribe to PFF and generally find their analysis and grading to be very accurate. I'd argue with some of these, but they have a great rep because of their track record of being very close to the mark. Fans of Jason Brown(their worst center in the NFL 2 of 3 years) probably disagree, but where is he working these days? HINT: Not in the NFL. Jacob Bell? The same. Jason Smith? Oh yeah.....

    You look at the dogs in the PFF rankings and most of them are out of football within a year or two, no matter their hype or anything else.

    JL is overrated by Rams' fans....that's one I wouldn't argue with PFF's ratings about.
    I agree 100% with you. PFF does an unbelievable job. The amount of detail the process goes through is near legendary like. There's a reason so many teams, scouts, GM's, and players praise these guys through their testimonials. They watch EVERY SINGLE PLAY of these guys.

    I remember a little while ago I said JL isn't as good as he used to be and is overrated by Rams fans and I got "torched" by all the geniuses from clanram. That's the problem with people at this site. Because they watch 10 or 15 games a year from a fans perspective they think they know everything... It's a TOTALLY different story.
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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Actually, I've read more consistent praise of Laurinaitis from non-Rams fans than from Rams fans.
    For example, at the start of last season, ESPN ranked JL #57 among all NFL defensive players (that's 57 out of 352 starters, or Top 17%).

    Any rating system that would put a player who is the top 5 in the NFL in solo tackles over the past three seasons (first in the league from 2011-2012 before he received help from Ogletree) in the "below average starter/adequate role player" category is a complete joke.
    ESPN? If you're going to make fun of PFF I don't think you can use ESPN as a credible source... They are probably next to wherever Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith are at as the worst opinions on sports. At least with PFF you get guys you KNOW watch tape and watched every play from a specific player in the years timeline. Ask probably 15 "analysts" from ESPN who the Rams RT this past season was and I'd be willing to bet almost anything at least 10 of them would say Rodger Saffold and 5 would have no clue. It's simply the truth..

    And btw, you and I both know "solo tackles" doesn't tell a story at all. Guys miss assignments, wrongly align guys, miss tackles, get lost in coverage, give up touchdowns or big gainers, many more things that a simple "solo tackle" stat would never let you know the whole story.


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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    I agree 100% with you. PFF does an unbelievable job. The amount of detail the process goes through is near legendary like. There's a reason so many teams, scouts, GM's, and players praise these guys through their testimonials. They watch EVERY SINGLE PLAY of these guys.

    I remember a little while ago I said JL isn't as good as he used to be and is overrated by Rams fans and I got "torched" by all the geniuses from clanram. That's the problem with people at this site. Because they watch 10 or 15 games a year from a fans perspective they think they know everything... It's a TOTALLY different story.
    Wow man you got to get real

    IDK if its true about the testimonials from GMs and how credible those GMs are

    But that last paragraph just makes no sense...So u knew JLau was over rated and apparently the majority of Clanram only watches from a fan's perpective but you watch in some other perspective that makes you more credible? I guess you may be right I only watch 15 games a year (im sorry I missed one game every year darn!) and since I only watch from a fan perspective I should come to you cuz I dont know everything

    Get real man... Just a simple question since MLB is basically the QB of the defense why don't you mock us picking up a MLB early because JLau is overrated is only an adequate role player and a below average starter.

    Just going to put it out their I dont think it is right for you to downplay other members opinion by saying it's from a fan's perspective; cuz technically these pff guys are fans of the NFL and do not work for the NFL so they also have a fans perspective...you got to watch the way you talk about other members bro...its just not cool

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    I still remember from a few seasons ago PFF creating an All-underrated team based on a season's worth of data. They had David Vobora at linebacker. In fact they rated him as the 6th best 4-3 outside linebacker in the NFL and as the Rams best player on defence.

    The Rams released Vobora, he was picked up by the Seahawks and played in 6 games before being released again. He's still a free agent.

    I keep this example in mind when reading anything by PFF.

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    The Rams front office and coaching staff agrees with me. A bunch of guys sitting in front of computers at PFF agree with you.

    Guess who wins that debate?

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    Wow man you got to get real

    IDK if its true about the testimonials from GMs and how credible those GMs are

    But that last paragraph just makes no sense...So u knew JLau was over rated and apparently the majority of Clanram only watches from a fan's perpective but you watch in some other perspective that makes you more credible? I guess you may be right I only watch 15 games a year (im sorry I missed one game every year darn!) and since I only watch from a fan perspective I should come to you cuz I dont know everything

    Get real man... Just a simple question since MLB is basically the QB of the defense why don't you mock us picking up a MLB early because JLau is overrated is only an adequate role player and a below average starter.

    Just going to put it out their I dont think it is right for you to downplay other members opinion by saying it's from a fan's perspective; cuz technically these pff guys are fans of the NFL and do not work for the NFL so they also have a fans perspective...you got to watch the way you talk about other members bro...its just not cool
    No. Everyone has their opinions. I'm not saying "you can't have an opinion because you're a fan". That's not what's coming out of my mouth. I'm saying in the case of some people I'm going to slide with the guys who I know for certain have critiqued every single play of a guy, where he lined up, what his assignment was, did he execute, was he in the right place. I'm 100% sure you and I aren't doing that while watching the game... Unless you're just watching James all game then you have no idea about the rest of the team. Plus you'd need All-22 film and you need to re-watch so many plays so many times to distinguish coverage and assignments.

    And for the record when our year was finished I DID mock us plenty of LB's ranging from C.J Mosley to Anthony Barr.

    If I told you tomorrow "Richard Sherman is the best CB in the league" and then a few hours later you heard on NFLN from Marshall Faulk "Richard Sherman is the best CB in the league" you would value his opinion much more than mine, and even if you ever discussed it on say a forum or to a friend you would not say "Sosa said he is" you'd say "Marshall said it".... That's simply what I'm doing. Why would I value a FAN from that specific team who quotes that JL is great because he has many tackles over a team of probably 70 people who dedicate up to 8 hours per game to watch and study players. I shouldn't, which is why I don't.

    I never said I was right you were wrong. I'm simply sliding with PFF. Nowhere did I say "You're opinion is useless because you're a fan but my opinion is right".... And no, these guys are not "fans". These guys make MONEY, so they have all the motivation in the world to do good work.


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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    I think the constant ripping of various news outlets gets old after awhile. Some on the board will never be happy no matter what is written or stated. NO ONE EVER has anything accurate- ESPN, Bernie, PFF, FOX, NFL TODAY, and on and on. After nearly every article or news item, its sarcasm and "So-and So doesn't know anything, "these guys are idiots", etc. No doubt some guys are better than others, but opinion is opinion. And giving credit where credit is due is necessary for complaints to be entertained when they're valid.

    PFF has gotten a number of things right, as pointed out by previous posters. They also miss the boat on some things in terms of evaluation. To just imply they're a bunch of fools is neither fair nor accurate.

    If you don't like what journalists write, don't read. And if you don't like what they say, don't listen. Pretty simple, really.
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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1 View Post
    I think the constant ripping of various news outlets gets old after awhile. Some on the board will never be happy no matter what is written or stated. NO ONE EVER has anything accurate- ESPN, Bernie, PFF, FOX, NFL TODAY, and on and on. After nearly every article or news item, its sarcasm and "So-and So doesn't know anything, "these guys are idiots", etc. No doubt some guys are better than others, but opinion is opinion. And giving credit where credit is due is necessary for complaints to be entertained when they're valid.

    PFF has gotten a number of things right, as pointed out by previous posters. They also miss the boat on some things in terms of evaluation. To just imply they're a bunch of fools is neither fair nor accurate.

    If you don't like what journalists write, don't read. And if you don't like what they say, don't listen. Pretty simple, really.
    I agree NJ, great post. I'm so tired of opening a Jim Thomas or Bernie thread and reading "Moron" "Idiot" "Clueless" "Doesn't know anything" "Does this guy even watch football?" this crap all the time. If you don't like the author you can hold back from tearing them every single time they open their mouth.

    If they deserve it for saying something stupid, I'll be the first to pounce on it, but every single thread it's getting annoying.. That's the difference though. Bernie, JT, Nick Wagoner... Those guys are "journalists". PFF is a football studying team. They're not interested in grabbing guys that can properly structure a paragraph, they are interested in guys that know the game trust me.

    I did a trial run with those guys and I thought I knew everything but it was NOT simple. I'd go into much more details if I could.


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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    The Rams front office and coaching staff agrees with me. A bunch of guys sitting in front of computers at PFF agree with you.

    Guess who wins that debate?
    When the Rams have a winning season again and with most of these same players PFF is ranking, we can discuss who wins whatever debate there is.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    I'll take a stab at actually discussing the topic at hand...


    Overall, this is a very sobering assessment, but not one without some merit. There are some choices I agree with, and others I do not. I'll exclude the "unknowns" because they're exactly that.

    Agree

    Offense
    Bradford, Stacy, Givens, Pettis, Jake Long, Dahl, Barksdale, Cook

    Bradford has had ups and downs, but I think he'll improve out of his adequate category. Generally puts up solid numbers, but needs to take his game to the next level.

    Stacy is good, but I'd like to see continuity out of him and see him make the leap to great. This is a side-effect of Richardson flaming out this year, unfortunately. Stacy will make that leap quickly though I think.

    Givens' play seems to have fallen off a cliff this year, and I think he's not playing to his strengths. He needs to return to the role of stretching the defense rather than a more possession-like role.

    Pettis has made good contributions, but has had a very limited role on a team with no great receiving options.

    Jake Long was a great signing and anchors an offensive line that has turned itself around and has a new identity. Injury concerns are out there though. He's rated as one step beneath elite status with potential to get there, and I think that's fair.

    Defense
    Jenkins, Quinn, Brockers, McLeod, McDonald.

    Jenkins should return to form in a scheme that fits his strengths. He has great potential and I think he'll find it with Williams coming back. No one can really argue that this was a down year for him though.

    Quinn - Elite. Really stepped up his run game this year in addition to his knack for stripping the football from the QB's hands. Lock him up now!

    Brockers was an adequate starter in my opinion. Rough start to the year but we saw improvement from him as the year went along. I missed those big performances from last year out of him this season. Maybe a scheme change will bring those back out. I think he'll develop into a great player for us though.

    McLeod - He seems to be a stop-gap solution for us, and has trouble in coverage, as shown when has was tasked as a slot defender when Finnegan went down. We could use an upgrade, but he hasn't been terrible.

    McDonald. He has shown good potential, but just needs some more time to develop. His rookie season was cut in half due to injury. I might put him up a level into adequate, but we didn't really see enough out of him.

    Disagree

    Offense
    Austin, Kendricks, Wells

    Austin was definitely not used properly for most of the season. When he was though, he was electric. I don't think anyone can see the Colts game and think of him as a below average starter. The coaching staff took steps to correct the scheme during the season and I think they'll keep improving it during the off-season. If they do, he'll be an amazing player. The huge scamper against the Cardinals comes to mind. NFL players just can't take him down easily when he's rolling.

    Kendricks is one of the most under-rated players on our team in my opinion. Great blocker and solid hands when he gets the ball thrown his way. Taking on a fullback/h-back role limits his flashy play opportunities, but anyone really paying attention wouldn't give him a below-average grade.

    Wells caught the injury bug this year, but I wouldn't label him as below-average. He's not an elite talent, but certainly adequate enough to help turn around our line this year.

    Defense
    Finnegan, Langford, Long, Ogletreee, Laurinaitus, Johnson

    Finnegan had a really, really bad year. But I don't think he's to the level of a poor starter/gamble to even be on the field. Especially considering his injury, I think that's just too much of a downgrade.

    Langford I would actually consider at a below-average level, with potential to get back to adequate. His play improved toward the end of the year, but I'd like to see it continue to next season before bumping him back up. He simply hasn't been worth the investment so far.

    Long has been more than just a solid starter for us, and I think isn't getting the recognition because his sack count isn't as good as Quinn's is. However, there are a lot of things to look at with a defensive end, and Long has them. I would consider him a high quality starter on this rating scale.

    Ogletree is a solid starter for us now, even after just his rookie season. He needs to work on his discipline for sure, but he was a tackling machine with a knack for big plays. The sky is the limit for him.

    Laurinaitus is probably the biggest stand out from this evaluation, and I obviously disagree with the below-average mark. J Lau is an intelligent leader who does his job. He isn't flashy and I think that's credited against him in this evaluation. While we could certainly go with some more big plays from him, I just don't think that's asked of him in this defense.

    Tru Johnson. He's not below average and I think he has great potential for us. Still needs to work on discipline and technique, but he has good skills and is a physical defender that's good for this style of defense.



    Last edited by shower beers; -02-21-2014 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by shower beers View Post
    Austin was definitely not used properly for most of the season. When he was though, he was electric. I don't think anyone can see the Colts game and think of him as a below average starter. The coaching staff took steps to correct the scheme during the season and I think they'll keep improving it during the off-season. If they do, he'll be an amazing player. The huge scamper against the Cardinals comes to mind. NFL players just can't take him down easily when he's rolling.

    Long has been more than just a solid starter for us, and I think isn't getting the recognition because his sack count isn't as good as Quinn's is. However, there are a lot of things to look at with a defensive end, and Long has them. I would consider him a high quality starter on this rating scale.
    You can't help but be disappointed by Austin's season. He was explosive at times but was not very good at the beginning. A player like him should have a AVG of about at least 15.0 yards, while he was under 10 at the beginning. He also was at the top of the league in dropped passes which is never good. As the year went on though he became comfortable and you could tell from the plays he started to make.

    As for Long, I wouldn't say they underrate him because of sack numbers. Last year J.J Watt had 20.5 sacks while this past season he had 10.5 sacks. They rated him better this year than last year.

    Long just isn't very good against the run. He has his games where he sets the edge well, but most games he struggles against the run. He is still very good at applying pressure though.


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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Let's look at the assertion that PFF watches every player on every play in order to come up with their rankings. I think that sounds fishy, so I'm going to ask my friend, Dr. Sheldon Cooper, to give us his thoughts.

    Thanks, Av.

    Based upon my research, there are approximately 130 plays in each NFL game. I will assume further that it takes an analyst at least one and one-half minutes to watch a play (including watching multiple times for from multiple angles) and to document his evaluation. As the claim is that PFF watches each player individually, you must further assume that each play must be watched 22 times, once for each player on the field. This means that the minimum time to watch, analyze and document every player in an NFL game is 1.5 minutes x 130 plays x 22 players, or 4,290 minutes (71.5 hours).

    There are 256 games in an NFL regular season, so that means, it would take at least 18,304 hours (71.5 hours x 256 games) to watch every player, on every play, in every game, and to document one's findings. Even if you assume that an analyst can manage to perform 40 productive hours (as opposed to idle/break time) in a workweek, it would take 457.6 workweeks to complete the task of analyzing an NFL season.

    Given that PFF publishes its findings within 8 weeks of the end of the NFL season, only two possiblities emerge. First, it is possible that PFF employs dozens of analysts, all of whom have responsibilities for different games. Of course, if that is its method, its comparative analysis would be rendered meaningless, from a scientific standpoint, as it would be based upon the subjective opinions of multiple viewers.

    The second possiblity is that the claim that PFF watches every player, on every play, in every game is a load of horse hockey.


    Thank you, Dr. Cooper. That was very informative.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -02-21-2014 at 12:01 PM.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post

    If they deserve it for saying something stupid, I'll be the first to pounce on it, but every single thread it's getting annoying.. That's the difference though. Bernie, JT, Nick Wagoner... Those guys are "journalists". PFF is a football studying team. They're not interested in grabbing guys that can properly structure a paragraph, they are interested in guys that know the game trust me.
    The only journalism that a guy like Bernie practices is yellow.
    Yellow journalism, or the yellow press, is a type of journalism that presents little or no legitimate well-researched news and instead uses eye-catching headlines to sell more newspapers.[1] Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism.[1] By extension, the term yellow journalism is used today as a pejorative to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion.[2]

    Campbell defines yellow press newspapers as having daily multi-column front-page headlines covering a variety of topics, such as sports and scandal, using bold layouts (with large illustrations and perhaps color), heavy reliance on unnamed sources, and unabashed self-promotion. The term was extensively used to describe certain major New York City newspapers about 1900 as they battled for circulation

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Let's look at the assertion that PFF watches every player on every play in order to come up with their rankings. I think that sounds fishy, so I'm going to ask my friend, Dr. Sheldon Cooper, to give us his thoughts.

    Thanks, Av.

    Based upon my research, there are approximately 130 plays in each NFL game. I will assume further that it takes an analyst at least one and one-half minutes to watch a play (including watching multiple times for from multiple angles) and to document his evaluation. As the claim is that PFF watches each player individually, you must further assume that each play must be watched 22 times, once for each player on the field. This means that the minimum time to watch, analyze and document every player in an NFL game is 1.5 minutes x 130 plays x 22 players, or 4,290 minutes (71.5 hours).

    There are 256 games in an NFL regular season, so that means, it would take at least 18,304 hours (71.5 hours x 256 games) to watch every player, on every play, in every game, and to document one's findings. Even if you assume that an analyst can manage to perform 40 productive hours (as opposed to idle/break time) in a workweek, it would take 457.6 workweeks to complete the task of analyzing an NFL season.

    Given that PFF publishes its findings within 8 weeks of the end of the NFL season, only two possiblities emerge. First, it is possible that PFF employs dozens of analysts, all of whom have responsibilities for different games. Of course, if that is its method, its comparative analysis would be rendered meaningless, from a scientific standpoint, as it would be based upon the subjective opinions of multiple viewers.

    The second possiblity is that the claim that PFF watches every player, on every play, in every game is a load of horse hockey.


    Thank you, Dr. Cooper. That was very informative.
    I watched 1 game of football for PFF and it took me 12 hours. Yes, 12 hours. As time went on I decreased it to about 8 hours per game, but yes, that's detail for ya.


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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1 View Post
    PFF has gotten a number of things right, as pointed out by previous posters. They also miss the boat on some things in terms of evaluation. To just imply they're a bunch of fools is neither fair nor accurate.
    You're misrepresenting my criticism. My beef with PFF is that it takes subjective opinions, assigns numbers to them, and presents itself as if its scientific.

    If you don't like what journalists write, don't read. And if you don't like what they say, don't listen. Pretty simple, really.
    I suppose you could use the same approach when people express their criticism.

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