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Thread: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

  1. #46
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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    A lot of people are citing PFF as a resource now-a-days. Articles from NFL.com, analysts, journalists, and many more. I think that alone should give them enough credibility.

    Nobody from NFL.com is saying "Bernie Miklasz said that he thinks T.J McDonald should be replaced" which is why I started the article "Top 10 FA Safeties available for the Rams"...

    They would never cite a person they know has no idea what they are talking about. Journalists are hired because they can write, not because they know so much about the game.



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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    A lot of people are citing PFF as a resource now-a-days. Articles from NFL.com, analysts, journalists, and many more. I think that alone should give them enough credibility.
    That's where you are 100% wrong.

    An opinion does not become any more valid merely because it is adopted and repeated by others.

    If anything, all that shows is that many are too lazy to form their own opinions, so they simply parrot those of others.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    Of course, but it doesn't mean that a practising and employed lawyer is the only one to know how to do it.
    Sure but your the results are going to be better with someone that actually does it for a living vs say you or I doing our best cousin Vinny.

    If the Rams hired a HC or GM with no experience none of us would be very happy.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    No. Everyone has their opinions. I'm not saying "you can't have an opinion because you're a fan". That's not what's coming out of my mouth. I'm saying in the case of some people I'm going to slide with the guys who I know for certain have critiqued every single play of a guy, where he lined up, what his assignment was, did he execute, was he in the right place. I'm 100% sure you and I aren't doing that while watching the game... Unless you're just watching James all game then you have no idea about the rest of the team. Plus you'd need All-22 film and you need to re-watch so many plays so many times to distinguish coverage and assignments.

    And for the record when our year was finished I DID mock us plenty of LB's ranging from C.J Mosley to Anthony Barr.

    If I told you tomorrow "Richard Sherman is the best CB in the league" and then a few hours later you heard on NFLN from Marshall Faulk "Richard Sherman is the best CB in the league" you would value his opinion much more than mine, and even if you ever discussed it on say a forum or to a friend you would not say "Sosa said he is" you'd say "Marshall said it".... That's simply what I'm doing. Why would I value a FAN from that specific team who quotes that JL is great because he has many tackles over a team of probably 70 people who dedicate up to 8 hours per game to watch and study players. I shouldn't, which is why I don't.

    I never said I was right you were wrong. I'm simply sliding with PFF. Nowhere did I say "You're opinion is useless because you're a fan but my opinion is right".... And no, these guys are not "fans". These guys make MONEY, so they have all the motivation in the world to do good work.
    Yea man just watch the way you word and hit cap lock on a few things at first I thought you were trying to instigate something...

    It may come from my military backround but im sorry I dont see the reason for spening 12 hours to watch a 60 minute game...when I read that I was just like WOW

    Do you like watch each play multiple times and record what each person does then take an average of what they do and stuff or say like the guy was out of position 3 times on the same down but was in the correct position 12 times...IDK it just sounds crazy to spend that time just watching plays of the same game over and over again

    But props to you for actually doing that I would probaly punch the monitor the 3rd time i watched the same play
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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by BarronWade View Post
    Yea man just watch the way you word and hit cap lock on a few things at first I thought you were trying to instigate something...

    It may come from my military backround but im sorry I dont see the reason for spening 12 hours to watch a 60 minute game...when I read that I was just like WOW

    Do you like watch each play multiple times and record what each person does then take an average of what they do and stuff or say like the guy was out of position 3 times on the same down but was in the correct position 12 times...IDK it just sounds crazy to spend that time just watching plays of the same game over and over again

    But props to you for actually doing that I would probaly punch the monitor the 3rd time i watched the same play
    That's just how long it took at first. When I did a few times I got the hang of it and brought my time down to about 8 hours per game. I'm sure the guys they have doing it now probably take about 2-4 hours per game. Sometimes you need to rewind a play 5 times to see where everyone is lined up and taking place. Sometimes you have to use the coaches film feature to zoom out and see what player is where... It's definitely a pain in the rear at times but there's nothing I'd rather do with my time than analyse football.


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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, PFF is about as useful a tool for predicting the future performance of a football team as a window is for predicting what the weather will be next week.

    Some of those ratings are downright absurd. I'm not going to waste my time going through them.
    Out of curiosity, why? I'm in a job that requires rigorous data collection and analysis. Based on what they say about their methodology, no major mistakes stand out to me based on my expertise. That doesn't mean they are "right," there seems to be merit in their approach and they are honest about what they do. So, I'm interested in your objections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post

    Out of curiosity, why? I'm in a job that requires rigorous data collection and analysis. Based on what they say about their methodology, no major mistakes stand out to me based on my expertise. That doesn't mean they are "right," there seems to be merit in their approach and they are honest about what they do. So, I'm interested in your objections.
    A person's subjective evaluation of an observation does not qualify as scientific data. That's more akin to opinion polling, which is inherently unscientific.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    A person's subjective evaluation of an observation does not qualify as scientific data. That's more akin to opinion polling, which is inherently unscientific.
    Well, you have a narrow conception of scientific data, but then again I'm a social scientist so I have skin in the game and am therefore biased. In any case, thanks for the answer. I disagree, but its reasonable point of view you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post

    Well, you have a narrow conception of scientific data, but then again I'm a social scientist so I have skin in the game and am therefore biased. In any case, thanks for the answer. I disagree, but its reasonable point of view you have.
    That's not my definition, its THE definition. A collection of subjective opinions is not science.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Av- I understand the concept of using facts to back up statements you make about a player or a team. But everything doesn't have to be scrutinized to the umpteenth degree as if you were defending a convict. It's football. And both facts along with opinion and visual assessment are often intertwined in one's analysis about a player or a team. You can make statistics do anything you want them to do, which is why not every statistic is meaningful or truly tells you about a player. And no stat can measure intangibles- which exist in every sport.

    Let's simplify this and get back to the original post. Nothing in that original post suggests anything outrageous and in my opinion, looks like a pretty accurate assessment of the Rams as a whole. Either agree with it or disagree with it, but It is a standard write up that one would similarly expect to find in a Sporting News or Athlon pre-season preview.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    That's not my definition, its THE definition. A collection of subjective opinions is not science.
    I'm sorry, but you're wrong about that. If you restrict "science" to things that can be "unobtrusively measured," you'd be left with very little science left. But this isn't the place for this kind of argument, regardless of your confidence in your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post

    I'm sorry, but you're wrong about that. If you restrict "science" to things that can be "unobtrusively measured," you'd be left with very little science left. But this isn't the place for this kind of argument, regardless of your confidence in your opinion.
    Since I didn't say that, your comment us irrelevant.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    Its implied by your comments.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    No, its not. In fact, I have no idea what you mean by "unobtrusively measured." The word, "unobtrusive" means "inconspicuous." Perhaps you meant to use another word.

    Its pretty simple.

    "Mr. Quarterback completed 300 out of 500 passes this year." - OBJECTIVE, and therefore scientific/mathematical data.

    "Mr. Quarterback had 10 good games and 6 bad games this year." - unless "good" and "bad" are defined objectively (i.e. a "good game" is one in which the QB completes 60% or more of his passes), that is SUBJECTIVE and therefore NOT scientific/mathematical data.

    PFF is SUBJECTIVE because (1) they base their "scores" on qualitative interpretations of game film, and (2) they compare the subjective interpretations of multiple evaluators, despite the fact that each evaluator may have a very different way of analyzing what they see.

    They also make a lot of assumptions. For example, if an evaluator views a play and concludes that an OL or a DB "missed a block" or "got beat," they are assuming that they are aware of the subject player's assignment. These are just guesses, though. It is possible, for example, that an OT who "gives up a sack" to a DE was, in fact, assigned to block the DT (with the DE being the responsibility of the RB). Or, a CB may appear to get beat when, in fact, his job was to bump the WR and then allow the FS to pick him up.

    If you don't get the difference between objective/mathematical/scientific data and mere subjective opinions, I can't help you. PFF is not mathematical, its not scientific, and its not objective. That does not mean that they can't be right some of the time. It simply means that people who cite to them are merely backing opinions up with other opinions, as opposed to facts.

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    Re: Pro Football Focus Rates the Rams

    And, by the way, PFF admits that its method is subjective, not objective. This is from their own site:

    Statistics in their raw form are considered objective. But in our opinion, with the small number of NFL games played each season, raw stats are very often unintelligent. If a QB throws three interceptions in a game but one came from a dropped pass, another from a WR running a poor route and a third on a Hail Mary at the end of the half, it skews his stats by far too great an amount to be useful. Our “subjective” grading allows us to bring some intelligence to the raw numbers.
    So, take a play in which an interception is thrown.

    Evaluator 1: "It looks to me like the WR cut off his route, so I won't grade that against the QB."

    Evaluator 2: "No, I think that was designed that way, so I'm going to give the QB a minus."

    Evaluator 3: "I think it was the designed route, but the receiver failed to catch a catchable ball, so I'm not going to penalize the QB."

    Evaluator 4: "Well, I think the QB threw the ball too hard for that distance, so I think it was his fault."

    PFF Score: ???
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