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Thread: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

  1. #16
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    ^^^Exactly,he made some plays with his legs because the pass wasnt there.Based on some of you guys logic Aaron Rodgers is a running QB because he usually ends up rushing for like 10-40 yards with a couple rushes.Is he a running QB??No but he has the ability if things break down to pick up the yards on the ground.Sam with RG3 he knows the money is made with his arm but if need be to pick up a first down or keep a play alive he can take off.But its not his first though ala Vick.


  2. #17
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    The media loves a running QB.

    So do the fans.

    Give them a Michael Vick, a Tim Tebow or... the most recent example, an RGIII, and they can't get enough.

    But, riddle me this, Batman... how many running QBs have won the Super Bowl?

    Let's define the term first.

    I'm not talking about "mobile QBs" who can scramble a bit or move their feet well in the face of a pass rush. I'm talking about QBs who, when pressured, will tuck the ball and run downfield.

    The QBs who have had the most success in the big game... Starr, Bradshaw, Montana, Aikman, Brady... none of them were or are running QBs.

    Others who you might find on "best QB" lists... Favre, P.Manning, Marino, Fouts, Brees, Warner... none of them were or are running QBs.

    And, yet... fans and the media always seem to want to declare the latest running QB as the "next wave" of the position.

    In the end, some things just don't change. The QB position is about standing in the pocket and making throws. That's what wins championships.

    Even if the running QBs get the most face time on SportsCenter, its the pocket QBs that bring home the ring.
    Personally, I question your assumption that RG3 is a running QB. He is not. He is a QB who can run. There is a difference.

    The first rookie QB to be named player of the week in his first start, threw for 320 yards and 2 TDs on 19 of 26 passing. Looks like pocket QB stats to me.

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Some people really need to learn to read better.

    I'm not going to argue and defend points I never made in the first place.

    As I said, the book is still out on RGIII. If his run/pass ration continues to be in the range it was in his first game, I would consider him a running QB. If he resists the temptation to run, then history suggests that he'll have more success.

    But make no mistake... the media geeks out over a QB who can run a sub-4.5 forty, despite the fact that pocket passers have won the vast majority of Super Bowls.

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Seeing nine rushing attempts in the box score might lead someone to believe Griffin has a propensity for taking off and trying to run it himself when pressured, but what happened with Griffin on the field doesn't, IMO.

    This is a case where the stats don't tell the whole story, because many of those runs were designed run plays or Griffin trying to recover from a botched play, which doesn't fit the description of a quarterback dropping back to pass and running when pressured.
    So you think the 6-7 designed running plays are indicative of a pocket QB?

    I'd say that the expected number of designed running plays (with the possible exception of a short yardage sneak) for a pocket QB is zero.

  5. #20
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Some people really need to learn to read better.

    I'm not going to argue and defend points I never made in the first place.

    As I said, the book is still out on RGIII. If his run/pass ration continues to be in the range it was in his first game, I would consider him a running QB. If he resists the temptation to run, then history suggests that he'll have more success.

    But make no mistake... the media geeks out over a QB who can run a sub-4.5 forty, despite the fact that pocket passers have won the vast majority of Super Bowls.
    Not sure if you refer to me when you say "some people need to learn to read better," since your compassion for us is so profound that you don't want to embarrass us by calling us by name.

    But in the event that you are indeed referring to moi, my response is this.....some people need to learn how to make their point more clearly.

    From what I read, it is clear that you lumped RG3 in with the likes of Michael Vick and Tim Tebow. And they are certainly good examples of running QBs. Although Vick is certainly running less than he used to.

    And finally, maybe the media, like fans everywhere (with the exception of you apparently), enjoys seeing exciting players, making exciting plays. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that.
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    So you think the 6-7 designed running plays are indicative of a pocket QB?
    Well, I definitely don't think they're indicative of a QB who tucks the ball and runs downfield when pressured, because it's two entirely different types of plays. Your definition of a running QB was referring to how the player behaves during a pass play. Griffin running the ball on designed runs is irrelevant to that definition.

    As for whether they're indicative of a pocket QB, I think it's more indicative of a coaching staff understanding one of the strengths of the player and incorporating plays to take advantage of it. I think Griffin made a pretty valid case for his own individual tendencies when he turned down the opportunity to run for an easy first down so that he could instead make an intermediate throw to a receiver.

    Again though, I agree with your larger argument that quarterbacks who prefer to drop back and throw the ball rather than abandon the pass by running themselves are the ones who have traditionally found more sustained success in this league. I just don't think you can use most Griffin's nine rushing attempts as evidence that he's closer to the latter category, since many of them were not pass plays and shouldn't qualify to be judged in that regard.
    Last edited by Nick; -09-16-2012 at 12:04 AM.
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Seeing nine rushing attempts in the box score might lead someone to believe Griffin has a propensity for taking off and trying to run it himself when pressured, but what happened with Griffin on the field doesn't, IMO.

    This is a case where the stats don't tell the whole story, because many of those runs were designed run plays or Griffin trying to recover from a botched play, which doesn't fit the description of a quarterback dropping back to pass and running when pressured.

    Someone on YouTube has actually spliced together every play involving Griffin, pass or run, into a convenient eight-minute video:



    After watching the entire thing, I count only two plays that appear to be a designed pass play in which Griffin drops back and then decides to run it himself. That doesn't seem like a lot at all, at least not to me.

    In fact, it's worth pointing out that, on a third down play in the second quarter, Griffin bought time by running to the side and nearly crossed the line of scrimmage to take off and run for a clear first down, only to stop himself, reset his feet, and complete a pass to Santana Moss down the field for 27 yards. He actually displayed the exact opposite of tucking and running at the first sign of pressure; he bought time and bypassed a chance to run in order to make a good throw down the field.

    I agree with the primary argument being made in the thread - historically, it's the "pocket passers" who are consistently among the best and most successful in the league, and while "running quarterbacks" are exciting to watch, throwing the ball downfield has always been and likely will remain the quarterback's best route to success.

    Having said that, in the case of RGIII and his Week One performance, his inclination seems to be to stay behind the line and pass the ball, as many of his rush attempts were actually by design and not an example of a quarterback bailing on a pass play to run the ball himself.
    This was a thoughtful insightful post. I have watched the game 4 different times now. He is absolutely a pass first quarterback. There were times a lane was open (several) but RGIII opted to pass instead. That was what surprised and impressed me most about his mentality at the QB position. What he does do (after one game, granted) is extend plays. He is very difficult to bring down with pressure from a single player. He just avoids them because of speed but immediately looks down field for an open receiver instead of bolting. He truly does seem to be a nightmare for defenses. He is just learning and as defenses have film and adjust he seems to want to do the same to them. It will be a great chess match as Fisher is a great coach and the Rams D is very underrated. It will be a hoot!

  8. #23
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Well, I definitely don't think they're indicative of a QB who tucks the ball and runs downfield when pressured, because it's two entirely different types of plays. Your definition of a running QB was referring to how the player behaves during a pass play. Griffin running the ball on designed runs is irrelevant to that definition.
    Don't play semantics games with me, Nick. You're better than that. Clearly, a QB who has designed running plays called on a regular basis is a running QB. That goes without saying (which I why I didn't bother to say it when I defined the term).

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    I guess you don't.

    A running QB is one with the proclivity to run (as opposed to merely having the ability to run).

    Young would tuck and run with some frequency, but I think in the Bill Walsh offense, he was less inclined to run.

    The same could be said about Elway. By the time he won his Super Bowls, his proclivity to run was greatly diminished.
    When Elway won his first super bowl, 7 of his previous 14 seasons saw the same or fewer rushing attempts by him.

    I'm not sure what you're saying about Young. Do you mean that he reduced his proclivity to run under Bill Walsh's scheme, as opposed to the season and a half that he played in Tampa Bay?
    Last edited by mark.a; -09-16-2012 at 12:38 AM.

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Actually, you're the one without a clue. Young and Cunningham ran for a lot of yards, but that was due, in part, to their longevity. Their pass to run ratio was fairly comparable (Young 4.75 to 1, Cunningham 4.53 to 1).

    The QBs I identified as running QBs (by my definition) have much lower pass to run ratios:

    Tebow: 2.07 to 1
    Vick: 3.52 to 1

    We have one game of data for RGIII, but his ratio in that game was 2.88 to 1. We'll see if that continues to be the trend or not.
    Okay, breaking out the stats. LOL.

    Of the top 7 QBs in total rushing yards, none of them besides Vick would seem to fit your definition of a "running QB", as defined by run/pass ratio (though, Cunningham and Young are the closest).

    Also by this logic, Aaron Rodgers is closer to being a "running QB" than Donovan McNabb (as well as being more of a "running QB" than John Elway and Fran Tarkenton).

    Is this really what you meant?

    Or, did you mean that a QB who is good at running, but bad at passing, will not generally be a very good QB?

    . . . if that is the case, whether a QB is good at running doesn't really matter, does it? You could simply say, "Quarterbacks who are not good at throwing the ball are not good at playing quarterback". On that, I think, we could all agree.


    Vick (through 2011)

    729 rush att
    2538 pass att
    3.48 r/p ratio

    Cunningham

    775 rush att
    4298 pass att
    5.55 r/p ratio

    Young

    722 rush att
    4149 pass att
    5.75 r/p ratio

    McNair

    669 rush att
    4544 pass att
    6.79 r/p ratio

    Tarkenton

    675 rush att
    6467 pass att
    9.58 r/p ratio

    McNabb

    616 rush att
    5374 pass att
    8.72 r/p ratio

    Elway

    774 rush att
    7250 pass att
    9.37 r/p ratio





    Notable:

    Favre (1992-1997)

    293 rush att
    3201 pass att
    10.92 r/p ratio

    Rodgers (through 2011)

    249 rush att
    2113 pass att
    8.48 r/p ratio

    Tebow (through 2011)

    165 rush att
    353 pass att
    2.14 r/p ratio
    Last edited by mark.a; -09-16-2012 at 12:37 AM.

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Frankly, I could care less how many Super Bowls a running (or not) Qback wins. I only care how many running (or not) Qback's may win against the Rams. That is my only concern.

  12. #27
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark.a View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying about Young. Do you mean that he reduced his proclivity to run under Bill Walsh's scheme, as opposed to the season and a half that he played in Tampa Bay?
    In Tampa, his pass/run ratio was 2.34 to 1. When he ultimately become the starter in SF, his ratio was in the range of 6-7 to 1.

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark.a View Post
    O
    Also by this logic, Aaron Rodgers is closer to being a "running QB" than Donovan McNabb (as well as being more of a "running QB" than John Elway and Fran Tarkenton).
    When you look at McNabb and Elway, you have to consider that they played a lot longer than Rodgers has. Certainly, as QBs age, they become less inclined to run.

    As for Tarkenton, he was a scrambling QB who (perhaps more than any other QB I've seen) avoided running past the line of scrimmage.

    The rest of your questions are too idiotic to warrant a response.

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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    Don't play semantics games with me, Nick. You're better than that. Clearly, a QB who has designed running plays called on a regular basis is a running QB. That goes without saying (which I why I didn't bother to say it when I defined the term).
    Just like it goes without saying that designed runs aren't applicable to a discussion about a quarterback's behavior during a pass play, right?

    It's not a game of semantics; I'm simply sticking to the definition you established in your first post and the subsequent claim made about Griffin's rushing attempts suggesting a proclivity for abandoning the pass in favor of tucking and running.

    If it's so obvious that the presence of designed run plays establishes RGIII as a running quarterback, then heck, why not lead with that rather than claim many of Griffin's rushes were something they weren't?
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    Re: QBs run for chatter, stay in the pocket when it matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    If it's so obvious that the presence of designed run plays establishes RGIII as a running quarterback, then heck, why not lead with that rather than claim many of Griffin's rushes were something they weren't?
    Your right. Its my fault for not anticipating your ridiculous argument. I've gone ahead and amended my original definition so you won't be so confused any more.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -09-16-2012 at 01:01 AM.

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