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  1. #31
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by berg8309 View Post
    I agree, it was embarrassing, and play calling was disgusting. Does one horrific game mean the coach should be fired? Absolutely not. Did Bellicheat get fired after the Giants tore down his SuperTeam with superior play calling and game planning?

    Who was that coach the Giants had, that defensive coordinator who stopped the unstoppable Brady/Moss combo? I forget his name...

    Anyway, point is, sure Spags had a bad game, and I expected him to pull some tricks he'd been saving all season out of the bag, and he didn't. There is no reason to fire him though, he is still an inexperienced head coach, this will be a good lesson.
    I agree. Inexperienced coaches have often gone to a "safe" game plan in a big game. That's what I saw the Rams doing last night; playing "not to lose" instead of "playing to win." Even Collinsworth was saying that the Rams needed to come out of the shell and let Bradford go down the field. I'm sure this coaching staff has learned a LOT in the past 24 hours, as has a young team. Spagnuolo did a great job this year!


  2. #32
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    I am beyond shocked that this thread exists. Trust me I WANT shurmur fired.

    But to want Spags fired, you're an idiot. I know free country etc, but what spags has done with billy D is nothing short of amazing. If you really want spags fired, you should just hop on the Patriots/falcons bangwagon, and get the hell off the st. louis train.

    Sorry if this comes across too hard, but spags has done a 180 with this team and if anything deserves a raise!

  3. #33
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by berg8309 View Post
    Wait, so 1-15 to 7-9 is not progress? Did I miss something?

    Your claim to fire Spags is a ridiculous and just a knee-jerk reaction and you know it. No person in football would ever fire a coach after they won 6 more games than the previous year. That isn't "football code" it's freakin common sense.

    Stop trying to justify your knee-jerk when you know Spags should not be fired, and that the Rams would (rightfully) be a laughingstock if they did.
    The team has made progress. The coach and his assistants have not. I am divorcing the two parts here. We knew going into Spagnuolo and his assistant's tenures that they were pretty much all learning on the job. However, the theory with learning is that the mistakes start to go away. They...haven't. Spagnuolo didn't just suddenly become horrible at clock management-that's been a career long problem. The undisciplined penalties and mental lapses out of the players didn't just start to happen last night-that's been around for awhile. The failure to develop a functional offensive game plan has been a well documented issue for the last two years. The adjustment/adaptation issues were kind of pointed out last year and throughout this season. None of these are acceptable for an NFL coaching STAFF, and quite frankly we need to hold them to that standard if we want to entertain thoughts of ever winning another championship. Just as we are holding the players accountable, we need to hold the coaches accountable as well.

  4. #34
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    The team has made progress. The coach and his assistants have not. I am divorcing the two parts here. We knew going into Spagnuolo and his assistant's tenures that they were pretty much all learning on the job. However, the theory with learning is that the mistakes start to go away. They...haven't. Spagnuolo didn't just suddenly become horrible at clock management-that's been a career long problem. The undisciplined penalties and mental lapses out of the players didn't just start to happen last night-that's been around for awhile. The failure to develop a functional offensive game plan has been a well documented issue for the last two years. The adjustment/adaptation issues were kind of pointed out last year and throughout this season. None of these are acceptable for an NFL coaching STAFF, and quite frankly we need to hold them to that standard if we want to entertain thoughts of ever winning another championship. Just as we are holding the players accountable, we need to hold the coaches accountable as well.
    And yet you fail to mention the tremendous improvements the defense made with essentially the same personnel as last year, plus a couple new additions. You focus so much on the offense you forget that Spags turned the defense into one that can win games on occasion and he did it with much of the same players.

    Inexperienced head coaches almost always suffer clock management problems, pretty common, but you seem to expect Spags to coach like he's been a head coach for 10 years already, and even then those guys make mistakes.

    Typical impatient armchair GMing. I know you have a win-now approach, it is evident in your posts over time, and you may have outright said it. However constantly firing coaches for not getting immediate amazing results, or making the same mistake more than once will do nothing but keep us in the basement. Spags has shown a lot of progress, his team has shown a lot of progress. There is nothing to suggest Spags has reached his peak and is now incapable of improving upon his game plans and coaching. If anything I'm sure a few teams would be licking their chops at snagging Spags, he wouldn't be out of a HC job for too long.

    A couple more points real fast. Spags is a coach players like to play for, he makes them want to come here. He managed to get Robbins here, to a 1-15 team, when he probably could have signed elsewhere. Guys like him, and they want to come play for him. How easy would it be in the off-season to convince free agents to sign with a team that just fired a coach who realized a 6 game turnaround? Pretty hard is what. I wouldn't want to enter that mess if I were a player. That's the sign of a dysfunctional organization that will bring nothing but misery, and players would not sign here.

  5. #35
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Can you just imagine how the next coach search would go?

    Kroenke: Coach, we want you in St. Louis to be our Head Coach. What do you say?

    Coach candidate: Didn't you just fire a coach for improving the team by 6 wins last season?

    Kroenke: Yea, why?

    Coach candidate: Um, yea, I'll pass.
    Don't forget taking the worst team in football in 2009 within one win of the playoffs in 2010. And doing so without offering any big money contracts in free agency or making any blockbuster trades in the off-season.

    Spags did what he did with a team that returned most of its starters from the 1-15 season and had the 24th highest payroll in the league.

  6. #36
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    The team has made progress. The coach and his assistants have not. I am divorcing the two parts here
    But, Peoria, I'm just not sure those two concepts can be separated. When a coach improves his team by 6 games, he's not going to get fired.

    I mean, anything can happen, but I'm not sure why you would want it to.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  7. #37
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    But, Peoria, I'm just not sure those two concepts can be separated. When a coach improves his team by 6 games, he's not going to get fired.

    I mean, anything can happen, but I'm not sure why you would want it to.
    The culture may say the two can't be separated, but the culture also values a couple of other things (such as helmet to helmet hits) that may not be good. I honestly think the turnaround had more to do with a weakened schedule, the key roster upgrades we did make, and the team having better luck with injuries (wideouts excepted). I think most, if not all NFL coaches would have turned in a similar season to what Spagnuolo did at a minimum, and most would have done better.

    For what it's worth Spagnuolo is almost certainly a good defensive coordinator. It's just that I really think that he is not that good of an NFL head coach. Just like Linehan I think we've run into another Peter Principle guy who is in over his head and the team will continue to be outcoached as long as he is in charge.

    ---------------------------------------

    At the very minimum, I think we need to evaluate and change the philosophy behind the team's makeup this offseason. The NFL is making it harder and harder to win with good defense, and I think the trend is going to continue in favor of the offense. In particular, the hard hitting may be on the way out, and a defense based on that is therefore going to be in trouble.

  8. #38
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    At the very minimum, I think we need to evaluate and change the philosophy behind the team's makeup this offseason. The NFL is making it harder and harder to win with good defense, and I think the trend is going to continue in favor of the offense. In particular, the hard hitting may be on the way out, and a defense based on that is therefore going to be in trouble.
    Peoria,

    What are you happy about?

    Sometimes I can't see the forest from the trees. I feel like I want to at least understand where you're coming from, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to separate your posts. Right now, they're a looming cloud of negativity for me, and I can't read past the boggy pessimism. I'd like to see you cast at least something in a positive light without being sarcastic or despondent. I want to be convinced that all hope is in fact not lost, and that there is something to look forward to in the future. If you don't have anything to look forward to, then I genuinely don't know what the negativity is achieving and I, for one, struggle to take it even semi-seriously.

    We had more wins this season than in the last three combined. Start with that. That has to be a good thing.

  9. #39
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    I honestly think the turnaround had more to do with a weakened schedule, the key roster upgrades we did make, and the team having better luck with injuries (wideouts excepted). I think most, if not all NFL coaches would have turned in a similar season to what Spagnuolo did at a minimum, and most would have done better.
    But it wasn't that much weaker, was it? Both years we played AZ (2), SF (2), SEA (2), WAS, DET, and NO. That's 9/16 games in common.

    Four of our wins in 2010 came against teams we lost to in 2009, which I think makes it difficult to argue that the chief difference was strength of schedule.
    Last edited by Goldenfleece; -01-04-2011 at 01:13 AM.

  10. #40
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    I agree with Peoria on this. I think Spags did okay, and I think he has earned 1 more year, but I'm not sure he will ever be a good head coach. The coaching staff do make many of the same mistakes and when you have a "don't lose mentality" instead of a "kill the wounded animal" attitude, long term it doesn't bode well. We almost let a few games we had well in hand get away from us (ie the Denver game).

    I live in Tampa, so I have seen a young coach who wasn't even a coordinator in the league turn a "no talent" young team around. From 3 wins to 10, with one of those being against the Rams after we dominated them for the 1st half. Raheem Morris plays to win because that's in his make up. I don't see that from Spags. That scares me. I hope I'm wrong because I prefer consistancy on a coaching staff like the Steelers have had.

  11. #41
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by svh01 View Post
    I agree with Peoria on this. I think Spags did okay, and I think he has earned 1 more year, but I'm not sure he will ever be a good head coach. The coaching staff do make many of the same mistakes and when you have a "don't lose mentality" instead of a "kill the wounded animal" attitude, long term it doesn't bode well. We almost let a few games we had well in hand get away from us (ie the Denver game).

    I live in Tampa, so I have seen a young coach who wasn't even a coordinator in the league turn a "no talent" young team around. From 3 wins to 10, with one of those being against the Rams after we dominated them for the 1st half. Raheem Morris plays to win because that's in his make up. I don't see that from Spags. That scares me. I hope I'm wrong because I prefer consistancy on a coaching staff like the Steelers have had.
    Firstly Morris took over a team that had gone 18-14 in the two previous seasons (which is hardly "no-talent") then promptly went 3-13 in his first season. Spags took over a team that went 5-27 in the two previous seasons. This past offseason Morris wisely surronded his 2nd year QB with good receivers (also having Winslow helps) and the Bucs went 10-6 along the way beating the Rams at home by 1 point. Those 10 wins came by beating the following teams: Browns (by 3), Bengals (by 3), Panthers (twice), Cards (by 3), Seahawks, Niners, Rams (by 1), Redskins (by 1) and a Saints team that was already in the playoffs. Not counting the Saints game the best teams they beat were the Rams and the Seahawks. Also 5 of thoses wins against teams with a combined 27-53 record winning those by a combined 11 points.

    Now I'm not knocking Morris, I think he's done great things with the tiny payroll he has to work with. But I think Spags has done as good a job as Morris if not better considering the two teams they were given.

    Lets look at the offense in Tampa, in Morris' first season the offense, with a rookie QB, averaged just over 15 points a game with 287 yards/game (the Rams with their rookie QB averaged 18 points a game and 302 yards/game this season). Tampa, instead of firing their offensive coordinator, stuck with him and got some more weapons on offense and averaged 21.3 points on offense this season and 335 yards/game. Well Tampa must have an amazing coordinator right? Who is the Tampa Bay offensive coordinator? None other than Greg Olson! Josh Freeman seems to be doing alright with a second year with the same coordinator. So I suppose we could just fire Shurmur and change coordinators every year - ask Alex Smith and Jason Campbell how that turns out.

  12. #42
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peoria
    The culture may say the two can't be separated, but the culture also values a couple of other things (such as helmet to helmet hits) that may not be good.
    Culture? Really, Peoria? It's not the culture that suggests a coach who improves his team by 700%. It's common sense.
    I honestly think the turnaround had more to do with a weakened schedule, the key roster upgrades we did make, and the team having better luck with injuries (wideouts excepted).
    A weakened schedule? We played a 4th place schedule this year and last year. How was the 2010 schedule any weaker than the 2009? And key roster upgrades? A rookie QB and Fred Robbins make up for any extra 6 wins? And that rookie QB might have a different opinion of the injury luck of this team when viewing his targets this season.
    I think most, if not all NFL coaches would have turned in a similar season to what Spagnuolo did at a minimum, and most would have done better.
    Well, hard to argue a speculative statement like that since we will never know. However, I can look around the NFL and see teams with more talent winning less games.
    I think we need to evaluate and change the philosophy behind the team's makeup this offseason.
    I will agree with you to this end: I want to see this team loosen the reins when they have a lead. Conservatism is great in certain circles........coordinating an NFL offense ain't one of them.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #43
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Firing Spags is a ridiculous concept on several levels. Why don't you ask the players? Our defensive success this year was based on them buying into the system that he stressed. The Rams players love Spags. Fire the stability they have and watch this young team implode.

    And even without that, how can you ignore the huge strides we made? Before Sunday's game, people were calling for Spags to be named Coach of the Year. Blaming Spags and the coaching staff is assuming that the team underachieved and that the coaches held them back. If anything, this team overachieved this season. Get a couple more weapons, patch up that offensive line, and fill the holes in the roster. The coaching staff will look a whole lot better.

  14. #44
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramendola16 View Post
    Firing Spags is a ridiculous concept on several levels. Why don't you ask the players? Our defensive success this year was based on them buying into the system that he stressed. The Rams players love Spags. Fire the stability they have and watch this young team implode.

    And even without that, how can you ignore the huge strides we made? Before Sunday's game, people were calling for Spags to be named Coach of the Year. Blaming Spags and the coaching staff is assuming that the team underachieved and that the coaches held them back. If anything, this team overachieved this season. Get a couple more weapons, patch up that offensive line, and fill the holes in the roster. The coaching staff will look a whole lot better.
    I believe Whitey Herzog said it best. He explained that a coach is smart when his players performs like the coach wanted him to, and the coach is stupid when they don't. In response to his HoF closer Bruce Sutter leaving, Herzog claimed he just got a lot more stupid.

    I only point this out to illustrate the point that no matter the coach, they are only as good as their players. You could take Bellicheat, argueably the greatest coach of the last 10 something years, and put him on the Rams last year, and they weren't making the playoffs. If anything, Bellicheat would look like a freakin idiot.

    Now could he have done more with the club this year than Spags? Maybe, but he is also going to go down as one of the greatest coaches ever in the history of the sport. Could other coaches have done better? Probably not, Spags made a defense that was weak on the interior, with little outside linebacker help and poor coverage skills one of the better defenses in the league. That is good coaching right there. Spags took a team that was still devoid of a lot of talent, and almost went 8-8. Pretty impressive if ask me.

    And one more time, if Spags were fired, he would have a HC job again pretty fast I would wager.

  15. #45
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    Re: Question for those in the know about "the football code"

    Quote Originally Posted by berg8309 View Post
    I believe Whitey Herzog said it best. He explained that a coach is smart when his players performs like the coach wanted him to, and the coach is stupid when they don't. In response to his HoF closer Bruce Sutter leaving, Herzog claimed he just got a lot more stupid.

    I only point this out to illustrate the point that no matter the coach, they are only as good as their players. You could take Bellicheat, argueably the greatest coach of the last 10 something years, and put him on the Rams last year, and they weren't making the playoffs. If anything, Bellicheat would look like a freakin idiot.

    Now could he have done more with the club this year than Spags? Maybe, but he is also going to go down as one of the greatest coaches ever in the history of the sport. Could other coaches have done better? Probably not, Spags made a defense that was weak on the interior, with little outside linebacker help and poor coverage skills one of the better defenses in the league. That is good coaching right there. Spags took a team that was still devoid of a lot of talent, and almost went 8-8. Pretty impressive if ask me.

    And one more time, if Spags were fired, he would have a HC job again pretty fast I would wager.
    Exactly. You beautifully illustrated the point I was trying to make. Spags did a lot with a little, and when push came to shove, the players just weren't quite good enough. This isn't any individual person's fault. Spags offers stability as a head coach. The last thing this team needs is a coaching carousel.

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