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    on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    from Profootballweekly:

    The Ramsí defense isnít being discussed much lately with more concerns these days regarding the teamís offense, but weíre told defensive coordinator Jim Haslett is leaning toward retaining a 4-3 base scheme, with 3-4 elements liberally incorporated in passing situations.

    I know another topic on the Rams defense. I thought it noteworthy enough to post this. I know alot of posters want the switch to a
    3-4 defense. I think this is what we will see.
    Last edited by RamWraith; -01-21-2008 at 09:22 PM.

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    Re: Profootballweekly.com on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    whilst i know we struggle against a 3-4 D more than any other base formation, i really think any formation can be just as succesful as the other ,is all about what you do with the formation...the `85 Bears who ran a 46 D is deemed the best ever and altho not widely used in the NFL ,the `85 Bears if they played today in their old 46 would still be the best D in the NFL!

  3. #3
    PHAT-MONEY Guest

    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    go college on them. 3-3-5 that would be cool

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    This is for you Bar-bq

    Glenn Dorsey is not a 3-4 defensive end. He's a pass rusher from the inside. Drafting him with the intention of making him the giant middle man would be a waste of a top 5 pick and several millions of dollars. Not to mention the effort everyone on the board would have to go through to type all the complaints about the defense not being able to stop the run.

    Carriker is buld for the end spot in a 3-4. So is Chris Long. Leonard Little is not. I don't know why you listed 4 down linemen when there's only 3. Suggs is going to be a crazy amount of money. Like it was with Willis around draft time, it's not resposible to sign him. Unless you unload Pisa's cap.

    The defense is still built for the cover two. The backers, the linemen...

    There isn't a tackle with the value to be taken at the spot we'll be drafting. Frank Okam is the best bet at 320. Frank Morton and Jason Shirley, both weigh about 10 pounds more but don't have Okams ability. There isn't enough in either of the latter to warrent a giant change in the defense like that. There's too much for a rookie do to, let alone being the first man to play that position for the team.
    Look at any 3-4 thread on this board. You need the big middle man. We don't have one.

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Look at any 3-4 thread on this board. You need the big middle man. We don't have one.[/QUOTE]

    Could Ryan not develop into that big middle man? If the Rams got C. Long, they might be able to make a 3-4 work with AC at the other end. That might make LL expendable. Any thoughts on this?

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    3-3-5 that would be cool
    We ran that this year at times.

  7. #7
    btimsah Guest

    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Why does everyone always look at why we CAN'T run the 3-4? What about the reason's we have that allow us to run the 3-4? Adam Carriker makes a great DE in a 3-4. He can collapse the pocket with power, yet has the hands and agility to make speed moves. Leonard Little can play the OLB in the 3-4 and be as, if not more effective. Draft and Witherspoon inside would be nice.

    DE - Carriker

    DT - Ryan

    DE - Long

    OLB - Pisa Tinoisamoa

    MLB - Chris Draft

    MLB - Will Witherspoon

    OLB - Leonard Little (Think Demarcus Ware and also Little played this spot at Tennessee I believe)

    CB - Who Cares

    SS - Atogwe

    FS - Who Cares

    CB - Tiny Hill

    Either way this team needs some better, more physical corners who can come up and stop the run. This is something we'eve been missing for many years and would greatly help our run defense and bump and run coverage.
    Last edited by btimsah; -01-21-2008 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Because I think this team should go to the 3-4 a lot

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    The 3-4 lives and dies by the man in the middle. That's why we can't run it. Sure you could give Ryan a shot. He's not built for it but sure. It's still a new position to learn. They don't just jump to a new spot just as good as they were at the one before. Jimmy Kennedy? Ryan started out as a defensive end and now you want him to play a giant of a man in the middle? He's a pash rusher.

    We should never rely on corner to be the run defense, that's just out of left field.

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by btimsah View Post
    Why does everyone always look at why we CAN'T run the 3-4? What about the reason's we have that allow us to run the 3-4? Adam Carriker makes a great DE in a 3-4. He can collapse the pocket with power, yet has the hands and agility to make speed moves. Leonard Little can play the OLB in the 3-4 and be as, if not more effective. Draft and Witherspoon inside would be nice.
    Since when does Carricker lack power? He is a natural for the 3-4 end, but it seems to me that's because he's more of a power player than a speed guy. Moving Little at this stage in his career and asking him to drop into coverage at times (as he would have to playing OLB) might not be the greatest idea. Tinoisamoa has 7 sacks in 5 years. I think putting him in a position where pass rushing skills are so important would be a mistake.

    The 3-4 thing keeps coming up. And it's not that our players couldn't possibly do it, but that we're in much better shape to run a 4-3. If our players are even slightly better for the 4-3 and have more experience in it, where is the incentive to switch to an entirely new scheme?

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    The thing I don't understand is why some people want to switch to the 3-4, when we are actually starting to get better at the 4-3, all these years in the 4-3 and now we are starting to make progress, what would be the point of putting more strain on the players by making them learn a new system?
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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Look at any 3-4 thread on this board. You need the big middle man. We don't have one. -- RedArcher7
    Could Ryan not develop into that big middle man? If the Rams got C. Long, they might be able to make a 3-4 work with AC at the other end. That might make LL expendable. Any thoughts on this? -- Chris58

    Totally agree that Ryan -- whom I believe will become an excellent DT / UT -- could become that big middle man. Personally however, I'd rather that we stay on 4-3.

    I think our DL will be better in 08, alternating formations and all.

    With Chris Long in the lineup.


    PS: thanks Playa16 for the good thread.

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    Talking Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Having played defensive tackle, the defense holds a soft spot in my heart. Be it 3/4....4/3....2/5, it depends on situation and who your up against. A flexible defense is the best. We all know you need 1 or 2 linemen to get pressure on the opponents QB. Lately most NFL teams stress the defensive end as being the solution. Still I perfer of all possitions who can consistently get pressure on the QB is from the tackle possition (QB's blind side being best) or nose guard because if you have a respectable defensive end or outside LB, a strambling QB is more likely to come to a messy end.

    Yet what a lot of people and teams look at stats and whats on paper. Defense requires a take-no-prisoner mind set. The Ravens R. lewis is a good player, but its his attitude and inspiration that elevates the whole. That is where the Rams ought to be looking for, a very good player that is a leader. Alot of your problems on defense are half solved when they are inspired.

    To date, the Rams have potentual, but can't finish. Alot of course is because the offense just wasn't doing its job. The defense is the key to a successeful offense. Force a turn over or keep an opponent pinned consistently deep in their own territory and your chances to score increase. And the offense has to regularly have to come up with 80 yard drives and come away with points to help the D. That most simple forumla is the key to winning, but so difficult to achieve

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    I think if Witherspoon got some more help on the side, like how the Ravens have so many play makers, he could be a very great leader. Hes a pro bowler, can spark things in no time and step up. I agree though a leader to this team would give it some potential. Someone needs to rise up.

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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by btimsah View Post
    Why does everyone always look at why we CAN'T run the 3-4?
    Because it seems like those who argue that we can run it are simply trying to fit square pegs into round holes - Pisa & Little as OLB, Ryan as NT, Spoon as ILB, etc.

    I posted this in November, but it bears repeating:

    Look at the teams that run good 3-4 defenses in this league - New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh. Does anyone really think our defense has similar personnel to those units?

    They all have elite talent and size at the nose tackle position (Vince Wilfork, Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton). We do not; Clifton Ryan is progressing as a nose tackle in the 4-3, but I think you're asking a lot for him to be that big dominant anchor in the middle of a 3-4. You could move Carriker outside to DE in this alignment, but at the other DE position, we're not looking at ideal parts with Wroten or Glover, who I believe was underwhelming in Dallas when they tried to make him a 3-4 DE.

    Also, look at the personnel at OLB, one of the most important positions in the 3-4. Do the Rams have a Shawn Merriman or a Shaun Philips? Do they have a Rosevelt Colvin or Mike Vrabel? How about a Joey Porter, James Harrison, or Clark Hagans? We're talking about big 250+ pound guys with excellent height, guys who can take on and beat blocks and defend the run. Guys who can rush the edge and get to the passer. Where is our player like that? Maybe you can plug Witherspoon into that role due to his versatility, but he surely does not have the size you see from the personnel in good 3-4 defenses. And as Thomas said, you can't expect Little to make an effective transition to a standing role this late in his career.

    Then you look at the inside. Many fans have been calling for two years for the Rams to get a true thumping middle linebacker, meaning they don't think we have one now. So if we don't have one now, how are we going to play the 3-4 where we'd need two? Asking someone like Brandon Chillar to shift inside and be one of the two ILB could work as he has the size you look for in that position, and doing so would likely play to his strengths by not asking him to run all around the field. But again, we're not looking at ideal solutions here. What we're looking at is trying to justify the scheme with what we have, and that's never a good way to build an effective unit. We would need at least two more ILB candidates - one definite starter and one potential starter to challenge Chillar at this new position.

    Finally, what does a shift to the 3-4 say about the personnel that haven't been mentioned? Where does James Hall play in a 3-4 alignment? Again, probably too old to effectively make a shift to a full time pass-rushing OLB and is not powerful enough at the point of attack to hold up as a 3-4 DE. He'd be a situational player at best. What about Pisa Tinoisamoa? He's once again emerging as one of our best linebackers right now, but he'd be virtually lost in the 3-4. He does not have the size you want or need to play well as an OLB or ILB in this defensive scheme. He is not good enough at fighting through blocks and traffic to play in the front seven of a 3-4. So what do you do there? What happens to Chris Draft, who again is undersized and would likely not hold up as a front seven player in this scheme because of it?

    IMO, it will take a large shift in personnel - which means not only finding the right guys to fit the scheme but also jettisoning the guys we have that don't - to run an effective 3-4 base scheme here in St. Louis. If Haslett wants to do it off and on by standing up one of his defense ends or something like that, okay. But to make it the base defensive scheme is going to require a lot of tough decisions on a unit that, thus far, has been playing pretty solid football. Why try to change that so drastically?
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    Re: on Rams 4-3 Defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Look at the teams that run good 3-4 defenses in this league - New England, San Diego, Pittsburgh. Does anyone really think our defense has similar personnel to those units?
    Right. That's the problem, people see these good teams run the 3-4 and run it well, and think it's simple and that is what we should do also. It just doesn't work that way if you don't have the personnel, which we don't.
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