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  1. #1
    general counsel's Avatar
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    rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    We had a great debate in the last week of the season about whether the rams were better off winning or losing the last game of the year to the cowboys. I was one of the group that said we were better off losing.

    Question, for those that were happy we won that game, are you just as happy now that we look at the difference between what we are looking at with pick 11 vs. 8, which includes the liklihood of being able to move up a bit to get an aj hawk or a williams.

    ramming speed to all

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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Two reasons I'm glad the Rams won that game:

    1. Its always better to win. Momentum, confidence, attitude... all built by winning. Ask O.J. Atogwe what that game means to him going into his second season.

    2. As much as we think that we can say with confidence that a better player at pick 8 than there will be at pick 11, history belies this:

    2005:
    8-Antrel Rolle
    11-DeMarcus Ware

    2004
    8-DeAngelo Hall
    11-Ben Rothlisberger

    2003
    8-Jordan Gross
    11-Marcus Trufant

    2002
    8-David Terrell
    11-Dan Morgan

    2001
    8-Plaxico Burress
    11-Ron Dayne

    2000
    8-Roy Williams
    11-Dwight Freeney

    1999
    8-David Boston
    11-Duante Culpepper

    1998
    8-Gregg Ellis
    11-Tra Thomas

    Can you honestly tell me that there is a clear advantage to selecting at No. 8 over No. 11?

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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    I am happy we won the game. Torry Holt challenged everyone on the Rams especially the defense telling them if they wanted to return next year, they would have to work their asses off and achieve. That challenge was met from our defense as we absolutely shut down Julius Jones and the Cowboys offense. This showed that Torry Holt got through to everyone and that everyone on the defense rose to the occasion. That gave us hope and some motivation for next season, something to build upon. So yes, I was happy we won.

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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    sure, the FO probably wanted to lay down to enhance the draft position, but the players and coaches are conditioned to win and that's what they did...

    that's the difference between the "wanting" to win by building a dream team (ala the lions, texans, redskins and cardinals) and actually winning (ala pats, steelers...)

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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    I was pretty happy about it and I got to laugh at my little brother who claims to be a cowboy fan.
    That is always fun. :mask:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Can you honestly tell me that there is a clear advantage to selecting at No. 8 over No. 11?
    Looking at those situations, I see only two cases in which the latter player actually turned out to be clearly better than the one picked above him. In four other cases, I would take the player picked earlier hands down. The final two are pushes in terms of talent. So I think with half of the situations favoring the earlier pick and only two favoring the latter, that constitutes an advantage to selecting earlier, IMO.

    But I think in general, it's a bit too broad and simplistic to just look at the history of who has been selected 8th and who has been selected 11th to try and make a case as to whether or not one position is better. So much depends upon talent, need, and the teams making the decisions.

    The bottom line is you have more options at 8th overall than you do at 11th overall, and I don't know any team that would turn down the option of having three additional players to choose from when their decision time comes.

    That doesn't mean I think we should have forfeited the Cowboys game, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we gained much from the victory. Momentum? From an end of the season game going into a year with a regime change? I'm not really buying it.
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Looking at those situations, I see only two cases in which the latter player actually turned out to be clearly better than the one picked above him. In four other cases, I would take the player picked earlier hands down. The final two are pushes in terms of talent. So I think with half of the situations favoring the earlier pick and only two favoring the latter, that constitutes an advantage to selecting earlier, IMO.
    Don't agree with you at all. I'd say that the only one of those examples where the #8 is clearly better than the #11 is Burress over Dayne. In some cases (Culpepper, Morgan) the #11 ended up being the better player.

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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    gc i am a little shocked that you would want to lose a game just to move up a few spots in the draft.the draft is a crap shoot and you NEVER throw a game,as much as i would love to have hawk on the rams and given the choice to have one or the other the win will always come out in first.we will get a quality player in the draft and we dont have to lose games on purpose to do it.

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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    I never suggested we should have thrown the game. I only said we would be better off if we lost. I dont believe in momentum in this case, especially when you change coaches. To me, one game in a particular direction didnt matter. I dont think its as simple as comparing 8 with 11. a big part of my issue is the options you have at 8 (ie ease of trading up) that are tougher at 11.

    good debate though, reasonable people can differ for sure.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel

    ps would you feel the same way if the win cost you the difference between reggie bush and the #2 pick


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    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    In some cases (Culpepper, Morgan) the #11 ended up being the better player.
    Right, which I stated: "I see only two cases in which the latter player actually turned out to be clearly better than the one picked above him."

    But I was merely discussing my take on the situations. I certainly don't see enough variation in the talent of those picks to say that there's no advantage picking 8th instead of 11th. And like I said, in four of those instances, I'd take the 8th overall player over the 11th overall player. But maybe that's just my preference.

    And again, I think it's misleading to deal in historical examples over theory and practice in this instance. At 8th overall, you have more options. It's really that simple. We can sit here and debate player value all night, but that's all opinion. The bottom line is every one of those teams who selected eighth were able to make the choice between the player they took and the player that was taken at 11th overall, and because of the win against Dallas, the Rams don't have that choice.
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  11. #11
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    As much as we think that we can say with confidence that a better player at pick 8 than there will be at pick 11, history belies this:

    2005:
    8-Antrel Rolle
    11-DeMarcus Ware

    2004
    8-DeAngelo Hall
    11-Ben Rothlisberger

    2003
    8-Jordan Gross
    11-Marcus Trufant

    2002
    8-David Terrell
    11-Dan Morgan

    2001
    8-Plaxico Burress
    11-Ron Dayne

    2000
    8-Roy Williams
    11-Dwight Freeney

    1999
    8-David Boston
    11-Duante Culpepper

    1998
    8-Gregg Ellis
    11-Tra Thomas

    Can you honestly tell me that there is a clear advantage to selecting at No. 8 over No. 11?
    You can't make a case, Hall was selected before Rothlisberger because the Falcons needed a CB not a QB so Hall is the better player for the Falcons and Rothlisberger is the better player for the Steelers because of team needs. None of those players play the same position so there is no comparison to be made. You are comparing apples to oranges.
    Last edited by ramsbruce; -03-21-2006 at 03:00 AM.
    BRUUUUUUUUCE


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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    2006 NFL DRAFT ** 2006 NFL DRAFT ** 2006 NFL DRAFT ** 2006 NFL DRAFT **

    This year the difference between #8 and # 11 ?

    # 8 - Michael "HUFF DADDY"

    # 11 - FLUFF dAddY

    This is like the 1993 draft where

    # 8 - Willie Roaf -OL

    # 11 - Dan Williams DE


    ..
    Last edited by Tony Soprano; -03-21-2006 at 04:00 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Good debate............ I just want to WIN , it seems no point to go out there and lose and i agree it gives the players/ fans confidence.......


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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    I agree and disagree with AV on this issue.

    1. It’s always better to win. Momentum, confidence, attitude... all built by winning. Ask O.J. Atogwe what that game means to him going into his second season.
    O.J. Atogwe not getting a shot to play for the most part until the last two games. Maybe the FO did try and lay down but the kids came to play. OJ showed he has some big time poetical.


    As far as 8th spot vs the 11th, I would always take the 8th spot due to need. Every team has specific needs to address and the higher the pick the more likely you can get the best player that fills a need.

    When it comes to not playing your best players and not trying to win games. I always have a problem at the end of the year, when all the playoff teams pull their starter. I understand why they do it, but it still bothers me.

  15. #15
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    This game is about competition, (win or lose) & since we were young tikes its been beat into us to win. Any one of us on this board would love to have the #8 draft pick over the #11, but not at the sacrifice of layin it down. I personally want winners on the field who are never giving up once a player gives it up its time to get rid of him. And as fan i feel the same way, i Never want my team to lose at any cost, i want them fightin to the bitter end draft pick or no draft pick. Everything plays out for a reason. I for 1 am total confident the coaching staff will handle the draft just fine with what ever scenerio they get. Born a Ram Fan, Live as a Ram Fan, & Die as a Ram Fan

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