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  1. #31
    Rambos's Avatar
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Anyone who is summarizing this point by claiming we want the team to go out and lose on purpose is misunderstanding the entire argument.
    I would say that if it’s that cut and dry there is no argument.

    but merely recognize that when you're out of playoff contention and you look at things like the draft
    So once we are out of the playoff, you feel as long as the players are giving it 110%, you as a Ram’s fan should be hoping for a loss. Due to the fact that we will get a higher pick in the draft, am I getting this right?


  2. #32
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Two reasons I'm glad the Rams won that game:

    1. Its always better to win. Momentum, confidence, attitude... all built by winning. Ask O.J. Atogwe what that game means to him going into his second season.

    2. As much as we think that we can say with confidence that a better player at pick 8 than there will be at pick 11, history belies this:

    2005:
    8-Antrel Rolle
    11-DeMarcus Ware

    2004
    8-DeAngelo Hall
    11-Ben Rothlisberger

    2003
    8-Jordan Gross
    11-Marcus Trufant

    2002
    8-David Terrell
    11-Dan Morgan

    2001
    8-Plaxico Burress
    11-Ron Dayne

    2000
    8-Roy Williams
    11-Dwight Freeney

    1999
    8-David Boston
    11-Duante Culpepper

    1998
    8-Gregg Ellis
    11-Tra Thomas

    Can you honestly tell me that there is a clear advantage to selecting at No. 8 over No. 11?



    Ya but say Micheal Huff goes at 8 and Jay Cutler goes at 11, oh ya! we don't need a quarterback we need a safety

  3. #33
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    For anyone saying the win was good for momentum, I would say that not one Rams player right now is saying wow it was great that we won that last game now, the season is over, no one is thinking about last season. Nor are they saying we should have lost to move up in the draft.

    Basically back then it was nice for us as fans that we won, and as of now it would have benefited us in the draft if we lost that game. No one is suggesting that we throw the game on purpose. We were happy back then for the win and maybe a little disappointed now depending on how the draft goes.
    BRUUUUUUUUCE


  4. #34
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    It's always funny to see (and I'm guilty of this as well) fans viewing the draft in the rear view mirror. Sure, there's all kinds of "analysis" we can do from prior drafts, but it's meaningless. There are first rounders that never play a down and there are 7th round Pro-Bowlers. There's just no way to know what any player is going to do. All the "blue chips" may be complete busts. The fact is Ryan Leaf, Charles Rogers, Joey Harrington, Mike Williams, Lawrence Phillips, etc. The list could go on and on forever. Until they do something on an NFL field, there is no such thing as a "sure thing" in the draft.

    We should ALWAYS want to win. But, I also believe a silver lining should be sought. We won the game, so great, we won. There are more than 10 prospects that will make our team better, so we have the opportunity to find someone at 11. However, had we lost, oh well, we pick 3 spots earlier.

    Either way, there's something good.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  5. #35
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos
    So once we are out of the playoff, you feel as long as the players are giving it 110%, you as a Ramís fan should be hoping for a loss. Due to the fact that we will get a higher pick in the draft, am I getting this right?
    Once we're out of the playoffs, I don't necessarily think we should all hope for losses. But I certainly wouldn't be heartbroken about them since, as you already said, our Super Bowl dreams for that season are already over. Again, no one is saying let's go out and lose. But instead, let's recognize that losing would put us in a better position to improve the team for the next season.


    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce
    For anyone saying the win was good for momentum, I would say that not one Rams player right now is saying wow it was great that we won that last game now, the season is over, no one is thinking about last season. Nor are they saying we should have lost to move up in the draft.
    Pretty much. It's hard to make a case that the final game of last season gave this team any kind of momentum when afterwards the season ends, the staff gets canned, and an entire new way of doing things begins.
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  6. #36
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Pretty much. It's hard to make a case that the final game of last season gave this team any kind of momentum when afterwards the season ends, the staff gets canned, and an entire new way of doing things begins.
    Agreed. Even if we had the same staff back this season, winning one game does not give us momentum. Winning 3, 4, or 5 in a row at the end of the season gives us something to build on, one game really doesn't.
    BRUUUUUUUUCE


  7. #37
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel
    We had a great debate in the last week of the season about whether the rams were better off winning or losing the last game of the year to the cowboys. I was one of the group that said we were better off losing.

    Question, for those that were happy we won that game, are you just as happy now that we look at the difference between what we are looking at with pick 11 vs. 8, which includes the liklihood of being able to move up a bit to get an aj hawk or a williams.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel
    "I hope we lose! If we lose we can go up 3 whole picks in the draft! Who cares about seeing the Rams play well and win?"

  8. #38
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM-BO
    "I hope we lose! If we lose we can go up 3 whole picks in the draft! Who cares about seeing the Rams play well and win?"
    Anyone who is summarizing this point by claiming we want the team to go out and lose on purpose is misunderstanding the entire argument.
    Maybe you missed it.
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  9. #39
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    i suppose Hubison hinted at it the best...that whether we pick at 8 or 11 there is no direct correlation of the talent presupposed and the talent displayed on the field...GCs' premise that having a higher pick is a more enviable position presupposes that the FO will pick the better player...

    most of us get caught up in these common fallacies:
    1) player higher up will eventually become better players than those players chosen later. and that somehow, having more options is always better in regards to drafting players...

    (there are too many variables, intangible ones at that too, to consistently hit the mark on evaluating the potential of players. and contrary to the basic principle that having more options mean having better odds, quite often, the less options we are faced with, the better our decision making...)

    2) the draft is the only way to improve the team...

    (FA is the way to go to provide proven players to fill needs...the draft is much less certain in providing impact players, even at the very top)

    3) trading up is too difficult due to nature of salary cap and finding willing trading partners...

    (if the FO believes there is a single player that will, without doubt, provide immediate contribution to the team, then they will move up the draft, at all cost, to get that player. but therein lies the problem...there's always doubt regarding draftees...)
    Last edited by rampete; -03-21-2006 at 10:41 PM.

  10. #40
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by rampete
    and that somehow, having more options is always better in regards to drafting players...
    Can you explain to me how this is a fallacy? I find it pretty hard to believe that having a bigger pool of players to choose from is somehow not a good thing.
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  11. #41
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Can you explain to me how this is a fallacy? I find it pretty hard to believe that having a bigger pool of players to choose from is somehow not a good thing.
    More options are always better, but the ability for a team to identify the talent in the draft is unpredictable at best. The player ranked #23 may be the best potential in the draft, but they are not getting picked up first. It is a guessing game.

    #8 versus #11 is hardly any different. If the Rams really want the top rated players, they can trade up for them.

    One win against Dallas should not mean anything in the draft.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  12. #42
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Of course I always want the Rams to win.

    And just as much as I always want the Rams to win, I ALWAYS want the Cowboys to lose.

    We call this a "win-win".

  13. #43
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Can you explain to me how this is a fallacy? I find it pretty hard to believe that having a bigger pool of players to choose from is somehow not a good thing.
    sure, i'll try...but first, let me clarify myself...having more option is usually a good thing...but it most often hinders decision making, leading to doubt and indecisiveness, especially when many heads are involved...

    having a bigger pool of players to choose from allows for more options and better probability of finding the right player, if there is consensus amongst the individuals doing the picking...or if there was only one person doing the picking...often, when we're faced with a plethora of options all equally tempting, our decision making can become more arbitrarily influenced..which leads to this...

    more salient example is when teams are picking in the top 5 they are almost compelled, due to pressures from the owners, fans and media to pick one of the consensus top 5 players...this quite often inevitably leads to picking a player that may not be quite as coveted as another, who is thought of as a lesser player at his position...a good example is the houstan texans whose most immediate need is a OLT, but being in the position to draft a more glamourous player like reggie bush must be hindering the clarity of their decision making...
    Last edited by rampete; -03-21-2006 at 11:21 PM.

  14. #44
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    Houston has the Option of trading that pick for a substantial pick or picks and still taking their OLT. So would they be better off with their OLT and another first round pick or just their OLT alone?

    .

  15. #45
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    Re: rams beat cowboys- are we happy about it?

    if the texans have a strong willed and smart GM, then they will trade down and manage to land the OLT and another high second rounder to boot...

    but therein lies another obstacle for the texans, what if they trade down to the third or fourth spot with the OLT in mind but the second team beats them to it? their FO faces tremendous public pressure to do the right thing because let's face it, they're in a position which only seems like a no lose situation...

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