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Thread: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

  1. #46
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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    [/I]I've seen no verification of this claim (which sounds like something PFF uses for marketing), but wouldn't that mean that 30 teams don't use PFF?



    [/I]That's clearly marketing. I know you're not that naive.



    My general method is to look at objective data and question whether it is consistent with my subjective viewpoint. When in doubt, though, I go with the data:

    Here are some true stats that reflect on the Rams' OL play:

    Yards/Rushing Attempt: 3.0 (30th in NFL)
    Sacks Allowed: 13 (tied for 17th in the NFL)

    This suggests to me that the OL has done a poor job of run blocking, and a better job of pass blocking. In fact, though I did not have sacks/attempt stats handy (and didn't have time to run them for the whole league), the Rams are clearly in the top half of the league in that category, given that they are tied for 2nd in the league in pass attempts.

    Of course, if I had additional data, I might explore whether the pass blocking numbers are enhanced, to a degree, by the fact that the Rams throw mostly short passes, which require less time.

    Looking at all of this as a whole, I see no objective basis to rank the Rams' OL in the top 10 in football.



    Come on, you're not getting off the hook that easy

    Of course those are marketing techniques. They selling a product and they're using that to validate their product. That fact doesn't inherently make their evaluations useless or invalid.

    PFF is just watching the games and forming evaluations, not unlike yourself. They assign grades based on their evaluations because people are interested in that concept and how they arrived at their evaluations, and also because they have a product to sell. It's not unreasonable then, to assume they take their jobs seriously and strive for good evaluations.

    A lot of people in the sports journalism industry seem to think it's a good enough product to use in forming an argument or discussion, so it's not crazy that casual fans do too. I can't think of another outlet that goes into this kind of detail to help fans understand more than just an official stat line. They do also have their own "stats" I know, but that's really irrelevant outside of the PFF ecosystem, as those are not used for anything official. You can take them or leave them. Again, it's part of their product.

    Of course with any opinion, it should be taken as just that. I personally don't agree with their ranking of our O-line performance, but it's interesting to me to see a little bit more about them that I may have missed in just watching the games once. But to completely dismiss them on the basis of how they present their evaluations seems a bit extreme.


  2. #47
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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. In my opinion, sites like PFF are just another example of the "dumbing down" of sports media.

    Does it surprise me that their rankings sell? No.

    Does it surprise me that lazy sportswriters use PFF to back their opinions. Again, no.

    As long as people recognize PFF for what it is, I really don't have an issue with it. However, when people cite their "rankings" as if they are objective, scientific, statistical analyses, I feel compelled to take issue with that, because its simply not an accurate description of what PFF does.

    So, no... PFF's views are not entirely without value. Rather, as their OL rankings show, they are extremely fallible (much like any other subjective analysis).
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -10-11-2013 at 10:33 AM.

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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Objective - towards which player and which team
    Scientific - since they establish rules of evaluation and follow them
    Statistical - because they have a data set from their evaluation and runs statistic methods on it.

    Does that make their interpretations accurate or good? No, it doesn't necessarily. Just like AvengerRams interpretations in the other thread wasn't necessarily any good or accurate.

    AvengerRam seems to lack a clear understanding of what both science and statistics are, and that is really the core of our discussion, and also kind of off-topic.

  4. #49
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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Objective - towards which player and which team
    When someone looks a player and says, "hey I think that was a good block" it is an opinion based on observation and not data. That's inherently subjective even if it isn't biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Scientific - since they establish rules of evaluation and follow them
    Their not so clear rules of evaluation involve the opinions of the observer which is as unscientific as it gets.

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Statistical - because they have a data set from their evaluation and runs statistic methods on it.
    You should have the data before any evaluation. Once objective data is collected you evaluate said data.

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Does that make their interpretations accurate or good? No, it doesn't necessarily.
    No, it makes it easy. Need something to back up a claim? Oh look here are some stats. It's fast food data. It tastes good but once you dig deeper you find it's not really the beef you thought it was.

    And for the record, I've done my own objective observation of my posting technique and the content of this post in particular and I've used the data collected to decide that this post is amazing and above reproach. Easily +10 and the best post in this thread. If you don't know how I came up with that number then you just don't know science.
    AvengerRam, HUbison and emuen like this.

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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Is it science? No, I jumped the gun there, it isn't science. But it does make use of scientific methods.
    I guess really you said in your post what I originally wanted to point out, better than I was able to

    Quote Originally Posted by DE_Ramfan View Post
    No, it makes it easy. Need something to back up a claim? Oh look here are some stats. It's fast food data. It tastes good but once you dig deeper you find it's not really the beef you thought it was.
    Both threads do this. And then criticize each other for doing it.

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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Both threads do this. And then criticize each other for doing it.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Total protonic reversal.

    Even though you might think I suck at posting, I assure you this is at least +13. HOF level easily.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings-threads.jpg  
    Last edited by DE_Ramfan; -10-11-2013 at 12:15 PM.

  7. #52
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    Re: Rams line comes in at number 6 in Pro Football Focus league rankings

    Quote Originally Posted by emuen View Post
    Objective - towards which player and which team
    Thats' not what the word "objective" means. Go look it up. We'll wait.

    Scientific - since they establish rules of evaluation and follow them
    That's not what the word "scientific" means. If it was, then you could establish a rule that 1+1=3 and then follow that rule through your analysis. What you describe is closer to the definition of "science fiction." Go ahead and look up "scientific" too while you're at it.

    Statistical - because they have a data set from their evaluation and runs statistic methods on it.
    Again, you've missed the point. Their "data" is based upon opinions and, therefore, isn't really data.

    AvengerRam seems to lack a clear understanding of what both science and statistics are, and that is really the core of our discussion, and also kind of off-topic.
    No, I understand what science and statistics are perfectly. You, on the other hand, are either confused or just too stubborn to admit you're wrong.

    In any event, this thread has clearly run its course, so I'm going to go ahead and close it now.
    Last edited by AvengerRam; -10-11-2013 at 02:14 PM.

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