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  1. #46
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Am I bitter? Probably. Actually, yes. But that doesn't mean the points I'm making are invalid.
    Not trying to be rude, but I think in this case, it does. I think you're really exaggerating Martz's comparisons. Martz compared Bulger's release to Marino's release, and Bulger's personality to Montana's personality. No where did Martz say or even seem to imply that Bulger is the next coming of Marino or Montana, but rather that Marc shared certain traits of both of those individuals.

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  2. #47
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    I really could care less what "Socky" thinks about Martz or any other coach running his mouth. I don't agree that this is just the way it is. My opinion on Martz' spin stands as is. I have complained about Martz' spin for quite some time. This is really nothing new to me.

    Hell, one day Martz will be bragging a player up and the next day the kid is in the dog house or jettisoned out of town. Personally, I'd like to be able to listen to Martz and feel his words are at least somewhat credible. As it is, it is very hard to respect his spoken words and I wish it were not that way. He needs to put a sock in it and if "Socky" is available for the job, then all the better.

  3. #48
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Wraith. Editing my posts will not shut me up. It only infuriates me.

    Trout

    by admin *so would you rather I did it Trout ? as per the last site, we do not allow personal attacks. the rules of this forum are exactly the same as the last one. You can get your point over just fine without resorting to childish insults.
    We don't give chances.*

  4. #49
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktrout
    Look at Avenger running his mouth again. Why don't you try reading what Mokle has to say and debate it logically. Instead of looking at it as another opportunity to speak without actually saying anything.

    You want to be entitled to your opinion but you rip him for having his own.

    Trout
    Well, I suppose one could argue that that your post is akin to the Black(Trout) calling the kettle a pot (or something like that)...

    But, to answer your question... I have no interest in debating Mockler in this particular case because I think his points (whether one agrees with them or not) were entirely unnecessary. The article is about Martz pumping up his starting QB in the press. This did not need to become a Martz bashing/Bulger ripping/Warnerite thread. Mock decided to move it in that direction, and that is what I was responding to.

    If I were to debate Mock's comments, I probably would have posted something like Nick's last post. Now that Nick did so, there's no need to discuss it further.

    But, as always, Trout, I thank you for your input. :tough:

  5. #50
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    BlackTrout, Please clean out your PM box so next time I don't have to post this on the board. I wish to talk to you
    Last edited by RamWraith; -06-08-2004 at 11:53 AM.

  6. #51
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    The way you phrase it, you make it sound like it's dumb luck.
    When throwing into double coverage, I think a qb has made a bad read at that point already (not always, but generally speaking) so he's going to need some luck for the play to have a positive outcome. With Bulger in particular, he showed a lack of consistency when making his reads last year so for him, I think it's more important to focus on making the right throws than completing a 30 yard out on a bad read and ultimately, for Martz to praise him for this particular thing seems wrong to me. It might be great when it works out but MB did lead the league in interceptions so the compliment seems very misplaced.

    I think it's hard to play the position of quarterback and not have any qualities of leadership.
    I think that if you start at the position of qb in the NFL, players are by that time conditioned to follow you to some degree. Leaf is an extreme example of a lack of leadership ability, but I don't think he had any leadership skills at all. In Bulger's case I think that Martz's description of him being the team's "little brother" figure illustrates a perception by the team of Bulger being a rallying point rather than a leader. I have no idea how it really is in the locker room, but going by what I've seen in his mannerisms and comments by the coaches and players, that is the impression that I get.

    You asked how Kurt could be run out of town for committing turnovers while Bulger is cheered while leading the league in interceptions, and I gave you four strong (IMO) reasons.
    I only addressed the one example because I feel it is the predominant reasoning behind Warner's departure. The other reasons were icing on the cake so to speak, and just more rationalization points for those in favor of seeing KW leave the team. I think that anyone who follows football at all knows that the qb's record is a very misleading stat and shouldn't even be mentioned when evaluating the qb. Yet, in the whole debate about Warner that is always the main point of emphasis.

    but how many casual fans are going to understand a comparison to Wade Wilson?
    If his quote is for casual fans then it makes it an even bigger gaffe to me. Martz doesn't need to associate Bulger with anyone to convey to people that he's a player of humility and character. Are people so dense they don't know what those words mean? No, this was a deliberate attempt by Martz to try and manipulate the perception of MB. Whether it was a single characteristic or as a whole, associating MB to Montana and Marino was nothing more than sensationalism and in my opinion very uncalled for. On top of everything else, he's putting Bulger in a position that he's not comfortable in. With all of this Joe Montana/Dan Marino talk, how is he going to live up to those expectations if they take Martz seriously? You should know that people key in on certain things and the only thing that's going to be remembered, especially by a casual fan, is that Marc Bulger is like Joe Montana andDan Marino according to his coach (that never coached Montana or Marino). If Bulger was uncomfortable living in the shadow of Kurt Warner, how comfortable is he going to be trying to live up to Montana and Marino?

    Were you saying this same stuff in the summer of 2003 when Martz was praising Warner, saying he's looked the best he ever has? I'm legitimately curious.
    No, I wasn't criticizing Martz the same way back then. I think it's a different issue but I was starting to feel a little uncomfortable with Martz and his statements back then. I remember being excited about the fact that Warner's problems were all behind him and it was just the thumb that was giving him problems in 2002. I did question whether or not Martz's statement was going to be any more accurate than his previous statements and took the whole thing with a grain of salt because I had a funny feeling that everything wasn't as it appeared. I didn't know in what way, but I knew when he flip-flopped on the whole qb competition between KW and MB that it couldn't lead to anything good (for Warner). When he proclaimed KW the starter win or lose and then changed his mind, he lost me as a believer in his word. If you don't have the balls to stand behind a statement, then don't make the statement.

    It was part of your response to me that was left out, and I suppose I'm still no closer toward seeing the double standard you said exists.
    I think after 10 subpar performances by Bulger, in a row, in the same season, it shouldn't be too hard to see. Whether the slate was wiped clean or not for Warner at the start of 2003 he basically got one half of football to prove himself last year. He wasn't given the same "we can fix that" attitude that Martz used every week for Bulger. Yes, he was given the bonus money but that makes it all the more confounding. Why would any team give a $6 million bonus to a player to put him on the bench and never let him compete for his job and get rid of him? Aside from all of that, the playcalling and protection for Bulger was also different. A much more beneficial gameplan in my opinion, but different nonetheless. Kurt was also put on the scout team in practice and not given any snaps with the first team. Kurt was basically exiled while Bulger was praised and exonnerated all of 2003. Bulger was "given" status as team captain (Holt earned it if you ask me) and overall been coddled most of his time as a Ram.

  7. #52
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Two points:

    1. You seem to be big on focusing on the fact that Bulger "lead the league in interceptions." Of course, there was a QB who had only one fewer than Bulger despite having 61 fewer attempts. His name... Brett something or other. Also, another QB who had 21 interceptions (Brad Johnson) won the previous Super Bowl. Does Marc need to cut down on interceptions? Absolutely. But don't make it the be all and end all of stats.

    2. You claim that Bulger had 10 subpar performances in a row. What games? And by what standard? Seems to me Bulger had several very good games last year mixed with some bad ones. 10 bad ones in a row? I think not.

  8. #53
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Can we all agree that the learning curve is over for Bulger? As the annointed field general and a team captain, there should be no excuses right? Especially considering he is "more than talented", "astounding", with the personality of Joe Montana, and a release like Dan Marino.

  9. #54
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Tell you what, on #2, I'll answer my own question.

    I'll even set the par level at a QB rating of 85.0, even though that's actually above the league average for starting QBs.

    Based on that, let's see the 10 consecutive subpar performances:

    Game 1: @NY Giants DNP (L) - N/A
    Game 2: San Fran 105.8 (W) - Above Par
    Game 3: @Seattle 66.5 (L) - Below Par
    Game 4: Arizona 90.6 (W) - Above Par
    Game 5: Atlanta 96.7 (W) - Above Par
    Game 6: Green Bay 91.2 (W) - Above Par
    Game 7: @Pittsburgh 102.9 (W) - Above Par
    Game 8: @San Fran 79.3 (L) - Below Par
    Game 9: Baltimore 29.3 (W) - Below Par
    Game 10: @Chicago 72.7 (W) - Below Par
    Game 11: @Arizona 56.0 (W) - Below Par
    Game 12: Minnesota 106.7 (W) - Above Par
    Game 13: @Cleveland 76.5 (W) - Below Par
    Game 14: Seattle 92.7 (W) - Above Par
    Game 15: Cincinnati 86.4 (W) - Above Par
    Game 16: Detroit 70.6 (L) - Below Par

    So, based on that, his worst streak was 4 subpar games (of which the Rams still won three games, including 2 in which Bulger lead the team to last minute wins). In total he had 8 above par games, and 8 below par games (including the playoff loss, which was clearly below par).

    Room for improvement? Yes?

    10 subpar games in a row?

    No.

  10. #55
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Nice of you to answer your own question Av, using your own criteria.

  11. #56
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    I defy anyone to come up with any reasonable definition of the term "subpar" that shows Bulger having 10 consecutive subpar performances last year.

  12. #57
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    When throwing into double coverage, I think a qb has made a bad read at that point already (not always, but generally speaking) so he's going to need some luck for the play to have a positive outcome. With Bulger in particular, he showed a lack of consistency when making his reads last year so for him, I think it's more important to focus on making the right throws than completing a 30 yard out on a bad read and ultimately, for Martz to praise him for this particular thing seems wrong to me. It might be great when it works out but MB did lead the league in interceptions so the compliment seems very misplaced.
    Well, I'll state again, I agree that he needs to work on his reads and not lock on to receivers, but as I said, my point is that he's capable of throwing into double coverage and succeeding, and I feel there's a good level of his own skills in that. Like I said before, no one's advocating that he do it constantly, but I would hate to watch a quarterback who always makes the "right" throws. Sometimes you have to take a risk, and I feel better knowing that we have a QB who is at least capable of doing it.

    Besides, if you look at Martz's comment, to me it sounds as if he's praising Marc's accuracy and ability to deliver the ball to a specific spot. Martz makes no mention of the double coverage or how Marc got the ball in there despite the extra coverage; that was added by the author. The direct praise from Martz seems to be focusing in on Bulger's accuracy and ability to lace the ball into a small window. I think that's something that Martz definitely should and has a right to praise.

    It's not like he said something like, "Remember when Marc threw into double coverage that one time and completed a pass to Bruce? Man, that was great wasn't it? I wish he'd do that all the time. Marc can clearly complete passes no matter what the coverage." All he said was Marc had a small window to get the ball into, and he did. I don't feel the compliment is misplaced at all because when reexamining the statement, it's not praising Bulger for throwing into double coverage but rather for his accuracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I think that if you start at the position of qb in the NFL, players are by that time conditioned to follow you to some degree. Leaf is an extreme example of a lack of leadership ability, but I don't think he had any leadership skills at all. In Bulger's case I think that Martz's description of him being the team's "little brother" figure illustrates a perception by the team of Bulger being a rallying point rather than a leader. I have no idea how it really is in the locker room, but going by what I've seen in his mannerisms and comments by the coaches and players, that is the impression that I get.
    I'm not going to repeat all the accomplishments I named earlier, but I will repeat that we're talking about a guy who came in as a third string QB and not only succeeded, but won the team away from a former two time MVP and Super Bowl champ. I think it would be ridiculous to imply that there's little to no leadership there or that the team doesn't view Bulger as a team leader. Again, I think you're reading too much into comments about Marc being "like a little brother" or however it was phrased. We don't even know what kind of context Martz is referring to, whether he's like the team's little brother in terms of his enthusiasm for the game and not wanting the fame for himself or in terms of how he behaves with the guys in the locker room or in terms of how he's just likable. I think trying to associate the "he's like a little brother" to "he's not a leader" is far more of a stretch than some of the above examples I mentioned.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I only addressed the one example because I feel it is the predominant reasoning behind Warner's departure. The other reasons were icing on the cake so to speak, and just more rationalization points for those in favor of seeing KW leave the team. I think that anyone who follows football at all knows that the qb's record is a very misleading stat and shouldn't even be mentioned when evaluating the qb. Yet, in the whole debate about Warner that is always the main point of emphasis.
    Well, when you're incapable of successfully helping your team achieve a win, clearly that's a big factor of whether or not you're going to keep your roster spot and make $9+ million. Yes, there were games during his losing streak where Kurt played well. The Washington game comes to mind; I thought he played pretty darn good in that game. But there were also games where he wasn't playing well and wasn't coming through for the team. 2002 and 2003 versus the Giants. In 2002, Warner confuses Holt's route and throws a pick, then in 2003 with the fumbles and looking sheepish in the pocket -- I'm not even sure the concussion was a legit defense since there's been question as to whether he had one at all. Clearly it's not just been a matter of him losing, it's also been a matter of him not playing well, or should I say, not well enough to win. Again, there should be no double standard because the Rams didn't release Warner based only on his turnovers as the passage I quoted seemed to suggest. Anything else is a different debate.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    If his quote is for casual fans then it makes it an even bigger gaffe to me. Martz doesn't need to associate Bulger with anyone to convey to people that he's a player of humility and character. Are people so dense they don't know what those words mean? No, this was a deliberate attempt by Martz to try and manipulate the perception of MB. Whether it was a single characteristic or as a whole, associating MB to Montana and Marino was nothing more than sensationalism and in my opinion very uncalled for. On top of everything else, he's putting Bulger in a position that he's not comfortable in. With all of this Joe Montana/Dan Marino talk, how is he going to live up to those expectations if they take Martz seriously? You should know that people key in on certain things and the only thing that's going to be remembered, especially by a casual fan, is that Marc Bulger is like Joe Montana andDan Marino according to his coach (that never coached Montana or Marino). If Bulger was uncomfortable living in the shadow of Kurt Warner, how comfortable is he going to be trying to live up to Montana and Marino?
    And I think this is a deliberate attempt by you to vent some pent-up frustration at Martz. So I guess we'll have to both be content with our own opinions. I have no problem with people venting at Martz, but I think this article was a poor target for that kind of frustration, and as I said in a latter response, I think you're really exaggerating Martz's comparisons because of your anger about the Warner situation and feelings about Martz himself.

    I'd be pretty shocked if anyone actually now expected Marc to be the next Montana or Marino because of what Martz said, because it seems very clear to me that Martz was comparing individual traits. I seriously doubt Marc Bulger is now worried about living in the shadow of Joe Montana and Dan Marino because Martz made a rather tame comparison between Marc and one aspect of both of those guys. It all just seems a bit dramatic, IMO.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    No, I wasn't criticizing Martz the same way back then. I think it's a different issue but I was starting to feel a little uncomfortable with Martz and his statements back then. I remember being excited about the fact that Warner's problems were all behind him and it was just the thumb that was giving him problems in 2002. I did question whether or not Martz's statement was going to be any more accurate than his previous statements and took the whole thing with a grain of salt because I had a funny feeling that everything wasn't as it appeared. I didn't know in what way, but I knew when he flip-flopped on the whole qb competition between KW and MB that it couldn't lead to anything good (for Warner). When he proclaimed KW the starter win or lose and then changed his mind, he lost me as a believer in his word. If you don't have the balls to stand behind a statement, then don't make the statement.
    I don't think it's as open and shut as you make it out to be, but how is it a different issue? Look at 2003 and what Martz said about Kurt Warner. Then, it was a situation of Martz praising his quarterback, and now it's a situation of Martz praising his quarterback. How are these different situations? Warner after 2002 and Bulger after 2003 probably both could have used some confidence from their coach, and Martz laid it on thick. It sounds like EXACTLY the same situation to me.

    Regardless, it's interesting how in the past whenever Warner was the object of Martz's praise, you admit to being excited about what Martz was saying, but took it with a grain of salt. Your recollection didn't sound hostile or bitter at all. But now that Warner's gone and it's Bulger being praised, Martz is "shoveling s**t" and should "just shut up about how great Bulger is and let him prove it on the field."

    Clearly this is Martz's nature, and like you said about your previous feelings, it should all be taken with a grain of salt. That said, I really don't think there's any justification for exploding at the article and overanalyzing every comment and making a lot of them out to be something they're not (at least not in my opinion). There was a question by some fans after the Carolina loss that Martz lost faith in Bulger, and perhaps his intention was to put that speculation at rest. Therefore, Marc became the latest target of a barrage of praise from Martz. I think it's as simple as that, and we should be judging Martz's comment as we've always judged them: somewhat cautiously while understanding the purpose behind them.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I think after 10 subpar performances by Bulger, in a row, in the same season, it shouldn't be too hard to see. Whether the slate was wiped clean or not for Warner at the start of 2003 he basically got one half of football to prove himself last year. He wasn't given the same "we can fix that" attitude that Martz used every week for Bulger. Yes, he was given the bonus money but that makes it all the more confounding. Why would any team give a $6 million bonus to a player to put him on the bench and never let him compete for his job and get rid of him? Aside from all of that, the playcalling and protection for Bulger was also different. A much more beneficial gameplan in my opinion, but different nonetheless. Kurt was also put on the scout team in practice and not given any snaps with the first team. Kurt was basically exiled while Bulger was praised and exonnerated all of 2003. Bulger was "given" status as team captain (Holt earned it if you ask me) and overall been coddled most of his time as a Ram.
    The Rams didn't give Warner a $6 million bonus and then put him on the bench. Let's clear that misconception up right now. The Rams gave Warner a $6 million bonus and named him the starter without ever having a competition to see if he was the best man. The Rams effectively said "Don't look at 2002, go back and look at 2001. He was dealing with an injury in 2002. He's our starter, and we're going to give him $6 million in extra cash because of it." So again, I'm seeing absolutely no double standard in treatment here.

    And you're saying out of 15 starts this season -- heck, even factoring in the Carolina game -- Bulger had 10 sub-par performances, in a row? Please, point me in the direction of those ten. Please. I'm looking forward to this.

    Look Mok, I know you're pissed about what's happened to Kurt. We all know how you love Kurt and hate Martz, and understand this entire situation is probably hard to deal with. I just feel you're really making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't there's anything in this article worth blowing up about. Martz isn't saying Bulger is the next Montana or Marino, nor will Bulger have to live in that shadow. It's a simple comparison of similar traits. When I was in high school, my mom told some people that she thought I looked like Prince William. I can tell you that after I heard that, I never felt any pressure to go out and become part of the monarchy of a nation, or that I was living in the guy's shadow. It's a simple comparison to help illustrate a point. Nothing to flip out over.
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  13. #58
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    WOW! Did this article ever stir up a hornets nest :-)

  14. #59
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Nice of you to answer your own question Av, using your own criteria.
    Well, he's using the QB rating. Thus, it sounds like he's using Mok's criteria since Mok said "I use the qb rating as a guide to a qb's performance. It takes into account a wide range of statistics and averages them into something that measures a qb's overall (passing) performance."

    Based on the 32 quarterbacks ESPN counts as league leaders, the average QB rating for a quarterback last season -- or par, if you will -- was 78.8. All games Avenger labeled as above par fall above that number, and those labeled below par fall below it.

    So what exactly are you basing your implication on? It sounds to me as if Avenger did a pretty good job in his rating of Bulger's performances. Heck, according to the league average based on ESPN's stats, Bulger's Week 8 performance would be above the par number.
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by RamWraith
    WOW! Did this article ever stir up a hornets nest :-)
    You're just now noticing? Cripes, I figured this would have been closed by now.
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