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  1. #91
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    AV..... that's all your going to say on this subject ??? And if.... !!


    As long as the Rams Win !!!

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  2. #92
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    That's not how you come to an accurate qb rating Nick.
    Then you should take it up with Football.com's QB Rating calculator, because that's what I used.

    http://www.football.com/cgi-bin/qbpa...ng/index.shtml

    How did you calculate 69.1?


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I guess I should have been more accurate when I said "last 10 games". I meant "game" as in start to finish, not mop up duty or spot relief like the Dallas, Chicago and Detroit games. I'll stand corrected though and go by appearances. It still illustrates my point that KW is perceived washed up at 69.1 and Bulger is named team captain for 70.2. Less than one point difference is hardly night and day. As far as last 10 games played, just for anyone who's curious, KW's rating was 77.6.
    I think it's obvious as to why Bulger is team captain for 70.2 because 70.2 is not the only thing you look at, just like how sacks aren't the only thing you can look at in our other debate. Bulger struggled early in some games, but when the win was on the line, he came through and performed. If not for some of those performances, the Rams might not have won the West. He helped lead this team to victories and to a divisional championship. It's interesting to note that while Bulger averaged a a QB rating of only 70.2 in his last ten games, only three of them were losses. Meanwhile, at 69.1, Warner is 1-9 in the last ten games he appeared and performed in, and the game which counts as a win is one of his "spot relief" games. So I guess you were right -- at some point, it does all come back to wins and losses, among other things.

    Like I said, it's a witchhunt. Take the most unflattering statistics about Bulger and blow them up to try and make a point, regardless of the other factors that are positive about him. Nevermind his being among the league leader in yards and completion percentage. Nevermind his coming back and helping win games! Nevermind team support! It's that darn QB rating that's the real issue! While Bulger wasn't pretty about it at times, he still got the job done. Personally, I think that made a big difference. The guy came back from a four INT game against Arizona to help get the team a win. I think that shows why he's considered a captain, and why I consider him a leader. He doesn't give up, and he's able to come through.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    And I'll admit that "10 subpar performances in a row" was a poor choice of wording. When arriving at a rating of 70.2 after a 10 game stretch, it would be more accurate to say something like: 10 inconsistent games that totaled a very subpar performance overall.
    I don't think it was a poor choice of wording. I think it was a completely incorrect claim. A poor choice of wording -- to me -- is when you word something one way and it's misunderstood, and upon rewording it, it makes sense. There's no way to misunderstand that Bulger did not have 10 subpar performances in a row, in my opinion.

    Now, if you wanted to make the claim that Bulger's average QB rating over this particular stretch of games was subpar, then I would agree with that. But as I've pointed out above, I don't think that tells you much about what he actually accomplished.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    All of this is somewhat beside the point I was trying to make, but I will accept corrections in grammar when they are warranted. My apologies.
    I'm still not convinced that we're talking about a grammatical error, but apology accepted.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    The point I was originally trying to illustrate was how Bulger's poor rating came in succesive games whereas Warner's struggles and poor rating came in tougher games, coming back from injury and to start a season over the course of 3 years. For someone as focused and aware of circumstance and situations as you are Nick, I would think you could really appreciate the difference in how Warner and Bulger arrived at their similar statistics.
    I'm aware of how Warner achieved his rating, and I think the situation surrounding some of those performances was one of the reasons the Rams were correct in paying him the bonus after 2002 and keeping him on the team at that point. There was some speculation that the Rams would let Warner hit the market after 2002 when he wasn't performing and Bulger was, and I was happy they paid him the money and kept him. While it didn't necessarily work out, I still think it was the right move.

    But the bottom line though is that I would think that since these ratings were over the course of three years, there would be more than one of Warner performing well. The fact that it was over a longer period of time says to me that he should have been more likely to recover from whatever was causing problems and pick up his game, whereas Bulger is being critiqued on week-to-week consectutive performance with little time between to really pick himself back up.
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  3. #93
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I don't think it was that far off base. I wound up being inaccurate by relying on my memory for those 10 games rather than re-doing the research but Avenger showed that Bulger had seven subpar games out of the last ten. That's hardly the unfounded accusation that you have me making.
    Question mok: Did Bulger have a stretch of 10 subpar performances in a row in 2003? No. What was Bulger's longest stretch of subpar performances in 2003? Four. Saying Bulger had 10 subpar performances in a row is not even close to being right. The most he had was four, not even half of ten.

    Thus, unfounded and inaccurate. It seems pretty black and white to me. Saying now that had seven subpar games out of the last ten seems like a copout to me because your original claim was that these performances were consecutive.
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  4. #94
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Since your information regarding KW's qb rating was incorrect am I safe to assume that you're a Warner hater with an axe to grind? Obviously you couldn't be subjective when posting such blatantly wrong information, could you?

    Just splittin' hairs with you buddy, it's only a joke.
    You'd have to take it up with Football.com and see if their calculator is correct or not, because that's the tool I used to come to Warner's rating. It's actually the second calculator I chose because the first gave me inaccurate answers.

    However, the point was you said Warner's rating in his last ten performances was higher than Bulger's. Even if I made a mathematical error, Warner's rating wasn't better than Bulger's. If my math was wrong, I apoligize for that, but that doesn't change the fact that my point was correct.

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  5. #95
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Geez, I was wrong about his game by game performances. My memory of the game by game breakdown had him start slow, have a couple of good games and then, based on the 70.2 rating that I knew was correct thought that he didn't have any successful starts in those 10 games. I incorrectly exaggerated to try and make a point. I concede the fact that he didn't have 10 poor performances in a row, but I can't say that horribly inconsistent is a much more positive way to illustrate his 2003 season.

    I don't buy into the battling back from 4 interceptions theory much either. The Rams were damned lucky that they created as many turnovers as they did against pitiful offensive teams like Arizona and Baltimore. If many of the teams the Rams eventually won against last year had any kind of offensive capabilities we wouldn't even be talking about the leadership and comeback abilities of Marc Bulger. Yes, he was able to pull a rabbit out of his hat last year but it wasn't due to good qb'ing most of the time. I absolutely give him credit for squeaking out wins while having horrible games, but that doesn't change the fact that he had those horrible games.

    The criticism about Bulger is all about awareness. If some people feel that the flukey season the Rams had, squeaking by lesser opponents is something that's going to happen on a regular basis then they might be in for a rude awakening. Bulger's play was subpar for most of the year, against poor defenses, with a lot of talent surrounding him on offense. It's not a personal attack on Bulger and it doesn't have anything to do with comparisons to other Rams qb's. Bulger was very mediocre most of the time and that is ultimately going to catch up to him and the Rams if he doesn't improve.

  6. #96
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    You guys are all getting bent outta shape on this topic. The bad news is, both sides are looking at it entirely wrong. Who cares what the rating says. Who cares how many sub-par games a QB had? Who cares whether a QB can win games and get us to the playoffs?

    No, there's really only one stat that matters. One indicator that makes Warner the best QB we ever had, one number that puts Bulger behind the 8-ball and will be the one thing against which he will always be compared to Warner, leaving him with some mighty big shoes to fill:

    Kurt Warner has never, ever lost to the Whiners. Ever.

    If I wasn't a church-goin' man, I would say that just about makes Warner god in my book.
    Have some fondue, it's delicious.

  7. #97
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Geez, I was wrong about his game by game performances. My memory of the game by game breakdown had him start slow, have a couple of good games and then, based on the 70.2 rating that I knew was correct thought that he didn't have any successful starts in those 10 games. I incorrectly exaggerated to try and make a point. I concede the fact that he didn't have 10 poor performances in a row, but I can't say that horribly inconsistent is a much more positive way to illustrate his 2003 season.
    You're telling me your memory was good enough to remember Bulger's QB rating over that stretch of time was 70.2 exactly, but not good enough to remember that he didn't have 10 consecutively subpar games?

    That sounds pretty fishy, Mok.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I don't buy into the battling back from 4 interceptions theory much either. The Rams were damned lucky that they created as many turnovers as they did against pitiful offensive teams like Arizona and Baltimore. If many of the teams the Rams eventually won against last year had any kind of offensive capabilities we wouldn't even be talking about the leadership and comeback abilities of Marc Bulger. Yes, he was able to pull a rabbit out of his hat last year but it wasn't due to good qb'ing most of the time. I absolutely give him credit for squeaking out wins while having horrible games, but that doesn't change the fact that he had those horrible games.
    That's why it's a team sport, because the team can make contributions. The defense (and an early lead that was brought about in part by Bulger himself when he completed every pass attempt in the first quarter to help the Rams score 14 points) helped keep the Rams in position to win that game, and Bulger helped them do it in the final minutes. Do you think most QBs who throw four interceptions are able to help their team battle back at the end? I know Kurt wasn't able to in the 2002 game versus Tampa Bay after he threw four (ZING! ).


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    The criticism about Bulger is all about awareness. If some people feel that the flukey season the Rams had, squeaking by lesser opponents is something that's going to happen on a regular basis then they might be in for a rude awakening. Bulger's play was subpar for most of the year, against poor defenses, with a lot of talent surrounding him on offense. It's not a personal attack on Bulger and it doesn't have anything to do with comparisons to other Rams qb's. Bulger was very mediocre most of the time and that is ultimately going to catch up to him and the Rams if he doesn't improve.
    Subpar for most of the year? Go back and look at Avenger's analysis. Eight above par, eight below. If anything, he was exactly par over the year.

    And against poor defenses? Cleveland, Minnesota, Green Bay, and Baltimore boasted pass defenses in the top ten of the league (ESPN.com) based on opposing QB's passer ratings. Let's not assume that Bulger's schedule was filled with NFL Europe teams. Keep in mind Arizona beat both the Packers, *****, and the Vikings at home, Seattle was a playoff team, Green Bay was a playoff team, Cincy was once considered to be a playoff contender, Baltimore was a playoff team, Minn was a contender until the last game of the season... while this wasn't the hardest schedule in the league, this schedule wasn't as weak as some make it out to be.

    I think what Avenger and I might be more comfortable in seeing is people's optimism that Bulger will improve rather than constantly shooting him down on his past mistakes. Let's try and be optimistic about the guy because, believe it or not, he showed a lot of positive things last season. People are quick to point the finger at his overtime interception that helped bring the Rams playoff hopes to an end (personally I fault Sehorn a tad bit more), but won't recognize the positives of that game. Let's try and take both the good with the bad, and put our support behind him to try and help him improve. It's not going to help his confidence much knowing there's a portion of the Rams population that aren't exactly cheering him on as loud as others, and the last thing we need are more QB confidence problems.
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  8. #98
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Speaking of Bulger's confidence, let's hope the guy pulling strings has it this year in his new team leader, especially since he feels young Marc is "more than talented" and "astounding". When push comes to shove, in big time situations (like against Carolina), actions speak louder than excuses.

  9. #99
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    When push comes to shove, in big time situations (like against Carolina), actions speak louder than excuses.
    I hope you're not trying to suggest Martz didn't have confidence in Bulger in that game because he went for the field goal.
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  10. #100
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    That's exactly what I am trying to suggest. You can dispute it, but you will never convince me otherwise. NO way. His actions spoke volumes.

  11. #101
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    That's exactly what I am trying to suggest. You can dispute it, but you will never convince me otherwise. NO way. His actions spoke volumes.
    I won't waste my time then, though it's kind of hard to believe that Martz didn't have confidence in Bulger specifically when he opened overtime by having Marc throw twice, the second of which was a big 26 yard strike to Bruce.

    It's my opinion that anyone who thinks Martz lost confidence in Bulger at that moment is a bit uninformed. The information countering that theory is well documented by Howard Balzer and I believe even in a Martz interview.

    But since you'll never be convinced otherwise... :bored:
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  12. #102
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    We argued this for months here on ClanRam after the Carolina game. No opinions really changed. You have yours and I have mine. I'm comfortable with that.
    Last edited by evil disco man; -06-09-2004 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Sorry, meant to hit "quote," not "edit." Hehe.

  13. #103
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    I'm comfortable as well... or maybe that's just the Corona talking.
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  14. #104
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    No opinions really changed.
    There's a shock. :smile:

  15. #105
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    You're telling me your memory was good enough to remember Bulger's QB rating over that stretch of time was 70.2 exactly, but not good enough to remember that he didn't have 10 consecutively subpar games?
    Yup, because that is what was important about the research I did. I also distinctly remember the end result of Tony Banks qb rating being 70.6.

    We can all agree that 10 games is more than half of a season right? So, for more than half of last year (the last 10 games in a row) Bulger posted a 70.2 qb rating. Some of the games were actually good and some were bad and a couple were awful. He REGRESSED as the season went on and didn't look like he was learning from his mistakes. That's a valid reason for criticizing Bulger isn't it?

    I can understand people hoping that he gets better and wanting to be optimistic but he hasn't maintained the high level of play to warrant optimism. His play has steadily dropped off since he started playing in 2002 and the 7 out of 10 games to end 2003 that were subpar are an indicator that there might not be improvement.

    I know Kurt wasn't able to in the 2002 game versus Tampa Bay after he threw four
    You're actually comparing Arizona's "defense" and Tampa Bay's at the height of their success? Arizona was a decent team because they beat SF? Because they beat Minnesota? Those were hardly elite teams in the NFL last year.

    I think what Avenger and I might be more comfortable in seeing is people's optimism that Bulger will improve rather than constantly shooting him down on his past mistakes.
    I think I would be a little more comfortable if Mike Martz was optimistic about Bulger rather than trying to sell me on the idea that he's more than talented, astounding and shares traits with Marino and Montana. Optimism is one thing but presumptions based on intuition are something else.

    Some important things I saw from Bulger last year were: his reads didn't improve throughout the course of the year, his long ball was very inaccurate all year, his interception total and he had trouble converting in the red zone. All of these things were constants throughout the year. Optimism would be appropriate if he was getting better as the year went on. Pesimism is what I have since he got worse as the year went along.

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