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  1. #121
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Sorry to interject in this two man tango, but just the fact that Martz decided to play for the tie instead of going for the win kind of suggests a lack of faith in at least the offense as a whole if not Bulger himself.
    That's a good point, I don't dispute that at all. In fact I even stated, "Based on this information, I think it would be clear that Martz wasn't losing confidence in Bulger alone, but the entire offense's ability to get into the redzone because of poor execution and lack of protection." Martz knew the team was struggling in the red zone, and knew that if he tied it and went into overtime, he wouldn't need a successful red zone drive to win.

    I think you're right -- Martz lost confidence in his offense. My main problem is when that turns into Martz losing confidence in Bulger alone. While Bulger wasn't helping the situation with his turnovers, he was helping them get downfield all day. The protection and efficiency in the red zone for the team was not good, and I think Martz realized this and made a call based on it.

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  2. #122
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Is it possible to argue for so long that one's name actually changes?

    It's the 2nd time for Nick. What can I say ... I was so engrossed by the defense of sMartz I ... never mind, my bad as they say out there in the concrete jungle, and those revenuers are everywhere today so let me go and hope they misspelled my name.

  3. #123
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Said Martz: "I was concerned about a shot to the end zone from where we were; I would have hated to have the ball tipped or intercepted."

  4. #124
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Great post, r8rh8rmike. There it is in front of us. It wasn't that Martz was concerned about the whole offense, it was about his confidence in Bulger.

  5. #125
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    As far as I can tell, the footballguys.com qb calculator is accurate as it duplicated the espn numbers that I tested. That is the calculator that I've used all along in computing my research.

    Using that calculator:

    Tony Banks' last 10 games (not appearances, a 2 pass attempt performace was removed from the list of games used as reference)

    comp-172 att-289 yards-1695 td-4 int-7 rating-70.6

    Marc Bulger's last 10 games

    comp-222 att-361 yards-2269 td-11 int-18 rating-71.2

    When checking, double checking, triple checking, cross referencing and re-calculating my notes it's clear that I made an input error in Bulger's yardage at some point causing a misrepresentation of his actual qb rating over the 10 game span discussed. Either that or I just read it wrong when I did the computation the first time. My heart felt apologies go out to the estate, family and friends of Marc Bulger as well as Rams fans across the world who may have been upset or offended by this slanderous material. There was no malice intended and I hope that in time, this unmentionable act can be forgiven so that we may all move on and let the healing process begin.

    As I mentioned in a previous response, Bulger's QB rating for the last ten games he played, based on Deacon's comments about calculating said rating, is a number of points higher than the rating you listed to Banks.
    A .6 difference in qb rating should be close enough for argument's sake, but I don't remember what the argument is anymore.

    No need to be bitter, Mok. Clearly I saw the games differently than you did. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong. That makes us two different fans with two different perspectives.
    I'm not bitter about disagreeing and conversing with you about the potential or lack thereof that's easily debatable when discussing Bulger. The guys over on the Insiders Giants board are busy talking about digital cameras and Ronald Reagan. I'd much rather argue and disagree about football than talk politics or consumer reports.

    You're focused completely on the negatives.
    When the negatives are the basis of my argument, it's kind of hard not to. Also, I've given Bulger credit for things in my discussions but I'm not attempting to present an overview of him. I'm arguing that his negatives don't warrant, at this time, the praise and adulation that he has received.

    The way you represent Bulger is startling. You compare him to Banks, you talk about how bad the end of his season was.
    This illustrates another of the points I was trying to make. The perception that Tony Banks was so horrible that it's impossible for Bulger to be compared to him. I realize the statistical comparison can be misleading and isn't all-encompasing. I just used it to try and open some eyes on the subject. Believe me, I HATED Tony Banks when he was with the Rams, but if you get the chance, re-watch some of the NFL replay games with TB at qb. You might be surprised. The Minnesota game in particular. You talk about having an optimistic view when it comes to Bulger and not focus on the negative. Try watching Banks with that same optimism and you'll see a qb who made some beautiful throws. Throw in a lesser group of talent, different gameplan and tougher division and I wonder how objective a view of Tony Banks you might have.

    Again, to say Bulger struggled in the redzone is to blame him for the team's struggles.
    No, that's not what I was saying. In light of your statistics I may have to reevaluate or at least research his performance in the red zone last year. I hadn't viewed those numbers, which are pretty acceptable, I had based my opinion off of redzone opportunities and field goals instead of td's. With the Rams' heavy emphasis on the pass and the lack of rushing td's I simply put 2 and 2 together rather than back it up with statistics. An 80+ rating in the red zone is nothing to complain about and doesn't warrant the label "struggled".

    And if you honestly think all of Warner's losses -- or at least those he's blamed for -- are because the defense lost the lead and that all of Bulger's wins were because the defense "saved the game,"
    I never said anything in absolute terms. The percecption however, is that Bulger somehow finds a way to win and Warner finds a way to lose. I don't feel that's correct and I think the Super Bowl and "Bulger's wins" against Chicago, Baltimore and Arizona are good examples of what I'm talking about. Warner struggled against the Patriots all day, yet in the end the Rams were in a position to win the biggest game of the year. Warner left the field with the Rams tied, the defense gave up the winning field goal and the perception is a "Warner loss". Bulger has utterly horrific games against the three teams I mentioned yet none of that seems to matter since the Rams won. Was Bulger part of the victories? Of course. It's hard not to be involved as a qb. But that doesn't excuse the fact that his play was horrible and he shouldn't be praised for saving the victory. In those cases, all that seems to be remembered is "Bulger won".

    not how the team struggled to put the ball in the endzone all day, thus suggesting an attempt at this point in the game would be equally futile.
    I see your point and agree to an extent. However, when you were watching the game, and Marshall was breaking off chunks of yardage to get the team down in the red zone, did you honestly think: "whoa, whoa. Let's quit running the ball and let the clock run down now that we're in field goal range."? If you look at the game as a whole, your argument is more acceptable, but I think if you look at what was going on in the game at the moment, Martz definitely had little faith in Bulger at the time. His 4th quarter interceptions as well as Marshall's number of rushing attempts on the last drive seem to indicate a deliberate action to take the ball out of Bulger's hands.

  6. #126
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Said Martz: "I was concerned about a shot to the end zone from where we were; I would have hated to have the ball tipped or intercepted."
    Because Marc Bulger is the only player who could have caused an interception, right? The Carolina defense was dumb as rocks, and clearly not capable of forcing a turnover themselves. It's impossible to think that someone on the defense would have made a good play on a ball and forced the turnover, right? :bored:

    I would have hated to have the ball tipped or intercepted as well, but that's not exactly proof that he lacked confidence in Bulger. If the defense is able to get an early pass rush do to poor protection and force a hurried throw, the chances of a turnover are increased. Plus, Carolina had a good defense. A shot at the end zone is risking a turnover even if you do everything correct.

    Clearly Martz was not only concerned about the entire offense -- including Bulger -- but also the Carolina defense. To say he had no faith in Bulger is ridiculous, because he came out throwing in overtime as well as all throughout the game.
    Last edited by Nick; -06-11-2004 at 12:21 AM.
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  7. #127
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    Cool Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    ď I was really concerned about throwing it into the end zone and having the ball tipped or bumped. I just wanted to get this thing into overtime. Ē
    óRams coach Mike Martz, on settling for a FG attempt on the Rams' final series in regulation
    Well it is water under the bridge now. However, at the time I was highly upset. I remember shortly after the game Barry Waller gave us a good spin job on how the odds favored going for the tie. Maybe so, but I didn't agree then and I don't agree now. I also posed the question to Barry that this end of game strategy, by Martz, was negative thinking and therefore it brings into question his faith in his players. Of course I got no direct response, to a direct question, from Barry.

    Watching the game months later, it is more than clear that Martz played conservative, with over two minutes left, in order to secure the tie, rather than risk the higher reward. I firmly believe he had given up on the touchdown at that point.

    Now, alluding back to my previously mentioned question to Barry Waller

    A few months later DR. Z had a talk with Mike Martz during a lunchen. This is what Martz had to say about the events at the end of regulation during the playoff game with carolina.


    It was an interesting talk, and then, without warning, the conversation switched to the most controversial call of the coach's career, when he went for the field goal instead of the go-ahead TD at the end of the championship game against Carolina. And, oddly enough, it wasn't me who switched topics. Martz brought it up himself, as if he were still trying to exorcise a demon.

    "I'd gotten burned twice in that situation, going for the touchdown," he said. "We'd already had breakdowns in our blocking scheme in that game. Guys came in free. I didn't want a turnover, a fumble, a forced interception."

    I started to tell him that I thought it was negative thinking, the wrong message to his players, etc., but he stopped me and said it himself.

    "Negative thinking," he said. "Fear. It's not good. I was thinking that we had a hot kicker and if we got into overtime, Carolina was tired and we'd get into field goal range and ..."

    "They were so tired I think you could have run it in," I said, and once again he agreed, sadly. I was beginning to feel ashamed of myself for joining the howling mob and taking a shot at him in print after the game (My God, was it only two and a half months ago? Seems like a year) -- not as viciously as other people had done, but still -- a strong enough rip.

    "I should have run it in." he said. "You're right, they were tired. Negative thinking," and he shook his head.
    Well there you have it, from the horses mouth.

    Negative Thinking....

    Just as I said.

  8. #128
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Tony Banks' last 10 games (not appearances, a 2 pass attempt performace was removed from the list of games used as reference)

    comp-172 att-289 yards-1695 td-4 int-7 rating-70.6
    First of all, your rating for Bulger -- 71.2 -- is accurate. I checked it with my utility and it works out.

    I can't say I remember what your point was about comparing Banks to Bulger either. But interestingly enough, Warner's rating over that ten game period is identical to Bulger's -- 71.2. Whatever point you were making by comparing Bulger to Banks could be made just as well comparing Warner to Banks based on QB rating.

    As for the perception of Warner being washed up while sporting the same QB rating in a ten game span that Bulger did, the difference is that Warner also boasts the highest QB rating of any quarterback with a minimum of 1500 attempts. He's a two time NFL MVP. Over the course of three seasons, for him to put up this kind of rating, it actually seems to support the fact that he's lost something. Meanwhile, you're taking a stretch by Marc Bulger that came toward the end of the season in his first time playing a 16-game schedule (15 regular plus the Carolina game) and had only five full games of experience prior to this season.

    So who does a low QB rating affect more? Marc Bulger, a relatively inexperienced pro player who has started only 22 games... or Kurt Warner, a two time league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, and the record holder for best QB rating ever with at least 1500 attempts? Seems like the latter is the answer. For Warner to drop in performance that drastically clearly says something. For Marc, it shows inexperience and a guy who's growing into his position.

    This whole time you've ignored his QB rating for the year, which was 81.4 -- above such quarterbacks as McNabb, Garcia, Delhomme, Gannon, Bledsoe, and better than the league average. But I guess none of that matters, since he had some bad games later in the season against teams that were tougher than most give them credit for.

    But I guess since Tom Brady was able to be successful at 26, Marc Bulger should be too. Is that the logic? It sure sounds like it. It's ridiculous to expect Bulger to succeed immediately, and I don't think anyone would be expecting that if Bulger wasn't replacing the legend of Kurt Warner. Look at what a guy named Favre did in his second season in the pros. 72.2 rating for the season, more INTs than TDs, and more experience under his belt than Bulger in his second season of playing football. The idea that Bulger has to be successful immediately or is going to be horrible because he had one bad stretch in a season that was -- again -- above par in total is ridiculous.

    Oh crap, I just compared Bulger to Favre. Now Marc is living under his shadow too. :bored:


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I had based my opinion off of redzone opportunities and field goals instead of td's. With the Rams' heavy emphasis on the pass and the lack of rushing td's I simply put 2 and 2 together rather than back it up with statistics.
    So you based your opinion on what the Rams as a team did, not what Bulger accomplished himself. But you weren't blaming Bulger for the team's difficulties, right?

    I think that's why it's recommended that the research is done before the claim is made.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    The percecption however, is that Bulger somehow finds a way to win and Warner finds a way to lose. I don't feel that's correct and I think the Super Bowl and "Bulger's wins" against Chicago, Baltimore and Arizona are good examples of what I'm talking about. Warner struggled against the Patriots all day, yet in the end the Rams were in a position to win the biggest game of the year. Warner left the field with the Rams tied, the defense gave up the winning field goal and the perception is a "Warner loss". Bulger has utterly horrific games against the three teams I mentioned yet none of that seems to matter since the Rams won. Was Bulger part of the victories? Of course. It's hard not to be involved as a qb. But that doesn't excuse the fact that his play was horrible and he shouldn't be praised for saving the victory. In those cases, all that seems to be remembered is "Bulger won".
    So you're saying Bulger doesn't find a way to win? Bulger didn't help drive the Rams downfield for game-winning scores on multiple occasions? I must be looking at the wrong play by plays then.

    In terms of Warner finding a way to lose, you suggest that it's the defense that was the real cause of the loss. That's what you meant when you said, " I cry foul because Warner is blamed for losses when the defense loses the lead," right?

    Well, let's have a look at some of these games. It's the 2002 Giants game. The Rams never had the lead in that loss. In fact, a Warner interception to Jason Sehorn helped dig the hole that kept the Rams from winning. Take away that INT, and the Rams would have scored enough points to beat the Giants based on the points allowed by the Rams defense. And even when they're down with Warner poised to lead a game winning drive, he throws to the wrong route and gets picked off to seal the game.

    Let's look at the 2002 Tampa Bay game. The Rams had the lead going into the second quarter, and still held on to it after a Tampa Bay field goal. The Rams only lost the lead when the Bucs scored on a touchdown pass on a drive set up by a Kurt Warner interception. In fact, every Tampa Bay score after their field goal early in the second quarter was on a drive that started after a Kurt Warner interception. To blame the defense for this seems like a pretty thin argument. Kurt Warner's interceptions put the Bucs at their own 44 yard line, then the Rams 1 yard line, and then right into the endzone for an immediate touchdown on the last one. Clearly, the perception that Warner has found ways to lose games isn't based on nothing.

    And I don't think anyone's discounting Bulger's poor performances against the teams you mentioned (I wouldn't go so far as to call the Chicago game horrific). But at both Chicago and Arizona, Bulger was able to help the team successfully come back and get a win. That counts for something in my book. It doesn't mean I'm going to throw a parade for what Marc did against Arizona, but I think his being able to buckle down after that performance (and from what I hear, a lot of booing from Rams fans) and come in to do what he did showed a lot about those "intangibles" you hear so much about.

    Earlier I posted this:

    After beating Seattle in December, Grant Wistrom made the following statement about close games: "But as long as we keep winning, we'll take them any way we can get them." I think that statement can be applied to some of Bulger's performances as well. Every win isn't going to be pretty, thus I find it comforting that we have a quarterback who can help pull out a win in the ugliest of situations.

    Personally, I'd rather win at the expense of our QB's rating than have a QB leading the league on a mediocre team. If you'd prefer the opposite, let me know.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I see your point and agree to an extent. However, when you were watching the game, and Marshall was breaking off chunks of yardage to get the team down in the red zone, did you honestly think: "whoa, whoa. Let's quit running the ball and let the clock run down now that we're in field goal range."? If you look at the game as a whole, your argument is more acceptable, but I think if you look at what was going on in the game at the moment, Martz definitely had little faith in Bulger at the time. His 4th quarter interceptions as well as Marshall's number of rushing attempts on the last drive seem to indicate a deliberate action to take the ball out of Bulger's hands.
    So let me get this straight. One of the main criticisms of Martz as a head coach is that he's horrible at game management. He was criticized for going for it in 2002 against the Broncos on a fourth down play. He was criticized for going for it in 2003 against the Giants on two fourth down plays. But now, in the playoffs, with much much more at stake, when Martz does what everyone seemingly begged him to do and goes for the field goal instead of going for the risky touchdown, he's criticized for that too?

    Martz is criticized for being too involved and caught up in the game and thinking that his offense can strike at any time, yet when he backs off that position and goes for the field goal, he's criticized even more?

    This guy really just can't win. It would seem that no matter what he does, there's always going to be someone down his back saying the call was wrong. For the record, looking at the entire game, I think what Martz did was the best decision he could make. If Martz would have gone for the touchdown and the Rams would have turned the ball over, the heat on him and the team would have been 10 times as worse. Martz went for the safe points -- a move practically everyone was begging for at one time or another -- and gets hammered for it. Unbelievable.

    And you're saying that what was going on in the game at that moment showed that Martz had little faith in Bulger? Do you know what was actually going on in the game at that moment? Let me remind you. Rams recover the onside kick and are down by three points. Martz -- who you're claiming had no faith in his QB -- calls three consecutive passing plays which combine for 39 yards and put the Rams into field goal position. It was after the third completed pass that Martz elected to go for the field goal. Not an incomplete pass. Not a near interception. But three completions in a row. You're telling me that after recovering an onside kick and calling three passing plays with Bulger under center that, at that moment in time, Martz had no faith in his QB?

    The theory is ridiculous.

    I think at this point I'm going to bow out of the entire discussion. I've said my peace on about all topics we've covered, and it's taking me an incredibly long time to respond to these posts. It's obvious that neither of us are going to change our viewpoint, and I can't even say I responded to this thread with the intent to change someone's mind. My intent was to debate, and I've done that for probably enough hours in this thread alone to equate to about one full day of debate time.

    Therefore, thanks for a good debate Mok. But you're losing your partner on this one. I just see no point in continuing to rehash the same positions back and forth with no real goal in sight.

    As for the original ORIGINAL topic, Martz overpraising players isn't something new to anyone. Like you did with Warner last season, Mok, I'm taking this praise of Bulger with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean I think of Bulger as the next Tony Banks. Clearly that's not the case based on my responses. But this isn't anything new to us, and frankly, I don't think it's anything to get fired up about. Your viewpoint is obviously different, and you're welcome to express that. I just feel I've spent enough time with this thread. Thanks again.
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  9. #129
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Just as I said.
    Here, since you obviously want one...



    Kidding, kidding!!

    Okay, now I'm seriously done in this thread. :confused:
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  10. #130
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Here, since you obviously want one...
    ROTFL....hey that's great Nick.

    It looks like a tasty cookie, not only do I want it, I earned it. However, I would like to know who in the hell is eating my cookie? Dez...are you eating my cookie?

    One last point, if I may.

    For those who believe Mike Martz had an inkling of a clue as to what on earth he was doing at the end of regulation, I will remind you, he still screwed up. He should have spiked the ball, thereby saving the last time out, in case of a bad snap on the FG attempt. Thank God the snap was good or Martz surely would have been laughed off the face of the planet.

  11. #131
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Great post on the Dr. Z article Ferter. I couldn't find it but I figured someone would. If that doesn't put the the whole "play not to lose", no confidence question to bed, nothing will.

  12. #132
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Does it matter? Bulger is the QB. If they didn't have faith in him, they wouldn't have let Warner go.

    It's Bulger's team now. Let's see if he grows into a QB or not.

  13. #133
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Your right Tx, but it does make for interesting discussion.

  14. #134
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    All of this talk about QB ratings got me thinking: why doesn't somebody write a page that lets you input several games at once so that you can get a rating for those games combined?

    Well, somebody just did. Being the stat-head I am, I figured I would create such a monster. You can find it here:

    http://www.dovertech.com/qbratings.aspx

    If you find any problems, let me know.
    Have some fondue, it's delicious.

  15. #135
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    Re: Ramsí Martz knew Bulger would be special

    Too much time on your hands Deac :-)

    THANKS!!!!! TOO COOL!

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