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  1. #31
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    Here's my take on it. Souldn't the concept of what team is "better" be defined by a time period. Take SB36 for example. For the 2001 season were the Pats better than the Rams? Not a chance. For the playoffs leading to SB36, were the Pats better than the Rams? Not a chance. But on that Sunday of SB36, were the Pats better than the Rams? Yes, they were.

    The Vikings were mentioned earlier. If you look at weeks 1-7, the Vikes were the best team in the league at 6-0, and the Cards were 1-5. However for weeks 8-17, both the Vikes and Cards were 3-7. So when the Cards beat the Vikes, did the better team win? Look at the season, you would have to say no. Look at the last 10 weeks, it's a toss-up. But look at that Sunday, you gotta say yes.
    All very good points. It is important to view things in context. I prefer to see things from the overall picture, though. Taking your examples, for the 2001 season, I think the Rams were better than the Pats. Last year, I think the Vikings were better than the Cards. But on the particular days when those two pairs played, the team I consider better didn't win. That doesn't mean I change my mind on who's better, but as Ferter said (proving my point probably better than I have), that's why they play the game.


  2. #32
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Like I said to Ferter, you have your opinion and I have mine. I think we're just going to have to accept that.
    Finally, we agree on something.

  3. #33
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    That doesn't mean I change my mind on who's better, but as Ferter said (proving my point probably better than I have), that's why they play the game.
    Oh that's very funny Nick. I am sorry that you just don't understand my perspective. Just because you claim or you perceive that a team is better does not make it so. What definitive proof do you have to substantiate your claim? None and no one ever does. So, they play the game, to prove who is better. You can spin it however you like but all you begin with are assumptions and all you are left with is excuses and unsubstantiated claims that the better team lost.

  4. #34
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    So first, injury is, as you put it, a "prominent extenuating circumstances" that could factor into losses... at least until I bring up an example of it, and then the story changes and those injuries shouldn't be considered because players should "play through them." That's interesting.
    Sorry Nick I just now read this post by you. When I say injuries, I'm referring to one or more Key players not playing in the game. I guess I need to explain everything in precise detail, since nothing seems to be generally understood. Like I said, dig deeper and I am sure you will find several starting players from both squads that had nagging bumps and bruises at that point in the season. You're just offering more excuses. Since we are mentioning flimsy excuses why not throw in brady's mental state. I seem to remember a bit of a QB controversy going into the game. Just another excuse, but one that is often alluded to when evaluating Bulger's past and upcoming season.

  5. #35
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Brady was knocked out of the AFC Championship game. Bledsoe came in and won it.

  6. #36
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    Note: Stats and rankings courtesy of profootball-reference.com and ESPN.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Oh that's very funny Nick.
    What definitive proof do I have to substantiate my claim? Why would anyone perceive a team to be better than their opponent? The answer is because they proved it throughout the season. It's not like people are just guessing based on rosters. "Well, this team has Marshall Faulk, so they're better than this team who has Antowain Smith." The 2001 Rams were perceived as being better than the 2001 Pats for a number of reasons because if you look at what the Rams accomplished in the season, it is in fact better than the Pats. And plus, one of those accomplishments is going to Boston and beating New England at home -- another of your prominent extenuating circumstances. The Rams went on the road and beat this team! Even with a home field advantage, the Pats didn't get it done in Week 10!

    You ask for proof, I'll give you proof. Look at how the teams ranked. The Rams were the highest scoring offense by nearly 100 points and boasted the seventh ranked defense in terms of points allowed. The Pats were sixth in both categories, their defense allowing only one less point than the Rams did in 2001. The Rams were averaging over 31 points a game, meanwhile the Pats average was less than 24. The Pats allowed more yards per pass, forced only one more INT than the Rams defense did, and allowed more yards per rush on the ground. And like I said, the number of points each team allowed is separated by only one single point.

    Clearly based on team performance over the season, the Rams performed just as well if not better than the Patriots. The Rams offense was much more dangerous, and the defense -- statistically -- was putting up very comparible numbers, if not better in some cases. Hence, better team, in my opinion. How many more facts do you need?

    Also, keep in mind the role officiating played in the Pats win -- a win on a last second field goal. Despite getting away with the on-field equivilent of assault and battery, tactics that the league has viewed on multiple occausions and deemed improper, the Pats didn't blow the Rams out. It took a last second kick before they could put the Rams down for the count.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    When I say injuries, I'm referring to one or more Key players not playing in the game. I guess I need to explain everything in precise detail, since nothing seems to be generally understood.
    Well, I can't read your mind. So yes, it would probably be wise to explain things in as clear of detail as possible.

    But are you saying that a player in the game with injuries is just as good and effective as that same player in a game without injuries? You seem to be implying that injuries only affect the team if the player doesn't play at all. Clearly, injuries can have an impact on a player's performance if he decides to play, and that should be taken into consideration, not just looked at as an excuse.

    Look at Rams/Eagles in 2002. Warner had an injured hand and didn't say anything about it. Rams lose 10-3, the Eagles' only TD coming off of a bad pass by Kurt, who could barely grip the ball let alone throw it. Who knows what that outcome might have been had a healthy non-injured QB been in there to play. Clearly, injuries have an impact on a game, regardless of whether or not the player is still in there.

    Look, I understand your perspective Ferter. I just fail to believe that the winner is always better, and I think the 2001 Rams performed better overall in that season than the 2001 Patriots did. Yes, the 2001 Pats won the Super Bowl by beating the Rams (under controversial circumstances), but I don't think that makes them the better overall team, and I don't think these reasons can simply be shrugged off as excuses. I guess if all you're going to do is shrug off any legitimate fact I bring up as an excuse, there's no real need for me to keep spending time finding these facts that you claim I can't produce.

  7. #37
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    Smile Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    It's not like people are just guessing based on rosters.
    Regardless of what their basis is, they are still guessing.



    The Rams went on the road and beat this team! Even with a home field advantage, the Pats didn't get it done in Week 10!
    Correct. That is fact. The Rams were the better team on that day.



    Hence, better team, in my opinion. How many more facts do you need?
    Exactly, your opinion. The only fact you have given me is that the Rams were the better team during week 10. Everything else is just conjecture based on numbers. The numbers have some value to make an educated guess, none the less, it is still a guess and worthless.



    Also, keep in mind the role officiating played in the Pats win -- a win on a last second field goal. Despite getting away with the on-field equivilent of assault and battery, tactics that the league has viewed on multiple occausions and deemed improper, the Pats didn't blow the Rams out. It took a last second kick before they could put the Rams down for the count.
    Until you can prove that the refs conspired against the Rams then this is again just speculation on your, and many other Rams fans, part. If you remember I already stated that I considered the Rams and pats to be at a par level with each other. I didn't expect a blowout either way. I figured the game would be close. I suppose that those who guessed that the pats were the inferior team were obviously quite shocked that the game was close.



    Well, I can't read your mind. So yes, it would probably be wise to explain things in as clear of detail as possible.
    Point taken. Bad assumption on my part that you are well versed in the typical generalizations, used in football talk, and their general meaning.




    But are you saying that a player in the game with injuries is just as good and effective as that same player in a game without injuries?
    What I am saying, for the third time, is that I am quite sure there were players from both squads that had nagging bumps and bruises at that point in the season. You seem to keep discounting that, because you only make a case for one side of the equation. To be fair you have to consider nagging injuries from both squads.




    Nick I hate to see you beat yourself up over this, I really do. If you say you understand my beliefs then my efforts to try and explain them to you were not futile. I understood your beliefs from the beginning and I was never trying to convince to stray from them, rather I was simply trying to explain what I believe.
    You're right it is useless for you to rattle off stats, numbers, or records. All you are doing is using these figures to make an educated assumption. To me, the proof lies in the game at hand, everything else is simply worthless speculation and it proves nothing.

  8. #38
    Nick's Avatar
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    Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Exactly, your opinion. The only fact you have given me is that the Rams were the better team during week 10. Everything else is just conjecture based on numbers. The numbers have some value to make an educated guess, none the less, it is still a guess and worthless.
    The Rams leading the league in scoring isn't a fact? The Rams defense allowing fewer yards and only one less point than the Pats isn't a fact? The Rams, based on their consistent performance throughout the season, having the better offense and a fairly equal defense to the Pats isn't a fact? The numbers support exactly that! Ferter, what the heck would you consider a fact then if none of these count? This is like a detective not considering fingerprints as evidence in a crime.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Until you can prove that the refs conspired against the Rams then this is again just speculation on your, and many other Rams fans, part.
    Ferter, who in the world ever said anything about a CONSPIRACY!? What I said was that the Pats got away with illegal tactics, not that there was a full blown conspiracy. All I said was that their penalties -- which again, after repeated occurances are now being addressed specifically by the league -- weren't called when they should have been.

    But I guess if you're not going to believe when one of their players himself says that penalty-drawing tactics were being used all game, then there really must be absolutely no way of showing you that the officiating favored the Pats. It's inconceivable to me that Willie McGinest can comment about the Pats' tactics and you still fail to recognize the officiating as a "prominent extenuating circumstances."


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Point taken. Bad assumption on my part that you are well versed in the typical generalizations, used in football talk, and their general meaning.
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this wasn't a serious personal shot, even though I want to note it read like one rather than just a sarcastic joking comment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    What I am saying, for the third time, is that I am quite sure there were players from both squads that had nagging bumps and bruises at that point in the season. You seem to keep discounting that, because you only make a case for one side of the equation. To be fair you have to consider nagging injuries from both squads.
    Please, let me know which member of the Pats who handled the ball on every offensive down was suffering from pain in his thumb (which was used on every handle), bruised vocal chords, the stomach flu, back spasms, and bruised ribs that required pain killing injections during the course of the playoffs. Let me know when you've found that player on the Patriots, because I know of none.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    Nick I hate to see you beat yourself up over this, I really do. If you say you understand my beliefs then my efforts to try and explain them to you were not futile. I understood your beliefs from the beginning and I was never trying to convince to stray from them, rather I was simply trying to explain what I believe.

    You're right it is useless for you to rattle off stats, numbers, or records. All you are doing is using these figures to make an educated assumption. To me, the proof lies in the game at hand, everything else is simply worthless speculation and it proves nothing.
    Who's getting beaten up over this? I'm not going to lose any sleep on your failing to acknowledge the work done throughout an entire season that shows consistently that the Rams were a better team.

    I'm more disappointed at the comment you made about my intelligence in this area. Perhaps it would be best if I didn't engage you, a moderator, in discussions if I'm going to have a bullseye on my chest, as I apparently do in order to warrant a comment relating to me as a person.
    Last edited by Nick; -06-25-2004 at 12:23 AM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    The only fact you have given me is that the Rams were the better team during week 10. Everything else is just conjecture based on numbers.
    Honest mistake here Nick. I was reading your post, quoting, typing, and thinking about proof and seeing facts in your quote. Anyways, that should read "The only proof you have given me" as per your post of trying to prove your case of the better team.



    The Rams leading the league in scoring isn't a fact? The Rams defense allowing fewer yards and only one less point than the Pats isn't a fact? The Rams, based on their consistent performance throughout the season, having the better offense and a fairly equal defense to the Pats isn't a fact?
    Yes, of course these are facts (excluding better offense) to (better offense by numbers). However, I don't consider this to be conclusive evidence of the better team. As I said, I consider these numbers simply as tools for making an educated guess, as to the better team. For me, it still has to be settled on the field.

    As far as the QB issue goes, I did mention that brady also fought through some adversity.

    As far as the officiating, well, all I will say is I don't see it in the same manner. The word conspiracy was not mentioned, however, when I read your statement about the pats getting away with the equivalent of assault and battery the word just seemed to fit. I guess it was the "getting away with" that stood out.

    Other than that, there was nothing personal intended on my part. Simply a little jocular banter.


  10. #40
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    1951

    They won a championship in that year. Dominated the league.

    Yep, the 1951 Rams are the best team ever.

  11. #41
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Tangentially speaking, now a word from the sponsors.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    none the less, it is still a guess and worthless
    Such a misunderstood word. "Nonetheless", one word, sometimes confused with three words - "none," "the," and "less." If you were to juxtapose "nonetheless" with "none the less" would you confuse one with the other? Me too.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument currently in progress.

  12. #42
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian_too
    Tangentially speaking, now a word from the sponsors.




    Such a misunderstood word. "Nonetheless", one word, sometimes confused with three words - "none," "the," and "less." If you were to juxtapose "nonetheless" with "none the less" would you confuse one with the other? Me too.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument currently in progress.
    I once knew this guy named Lester. Lester always wanted to be a Catholic priest. However, Lester also wanted a sex change. Nonetheless he became LestheNun.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #43
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian_too
    If you were to juxtapose "nonetheless" with "none the less" would you confuse one with the other? Me too.
    Oh man. :redface: I'm not sure if this says anything about my sense of humo(u)r, :redface: but this post illustrates exactly why I voted for adarian_also for funniest. :redface:
    Have some fondue, it's delicious.

  14. #44
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    Such a misunderstood word. "Nonetheless", one word, sometimes confused with three words - "none," "the," and "less." If you were to juxtapose "nonetheless" with "none the less" would you confuse one with the other?
    Ok criticize away. I guess it's deseverved, especially since you never misspell a word here and there. Sorry I went after your juxtapose word rather than going after the flattering insult you bestowed upon me.

    None_The_Less I am quite obviously Spell_Bound

  15. #45
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    Re: Which Rams team is the greatest of all time?

    I still say it was the 1951 team.....and another thing....I'll misspell any werd I want two.....

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