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  1. #1
    general counsel's Avatar
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    ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    Many on this board have stated that given jenkins' injury issues and his age (27), they are hesitant about giving up a #2 for him, let alone a #1. Some have stated that they wouldnt take him if he was available, in his current physical state and at his current age, with our #1 pick.

    If people have that view because they dont want to mortgage the future to try and win now, i understand that thinking. However, i want to make a couple of points.

    First, for those of you who wouldnt trade a #1 for jenkins and yet conceed that we are desparate for help at defensive tackle, why does anyone think that anyone we pick at 13, even if branch and/or okoye are there, is going to contribute in the first year or so in any material way. Second, what makes you so sure that branch or okoye wont be either busts or at least fail to meet your expectations.

    Tell me what the difference is between okoye/branch today and kennedy or lewis at the time we picked them. Kennedy and lewis were both picked at or around #12. Lets go back in time. If you could have had a 27 year old all pro who played all 16 games the year before, would you take him ahead of kennedy or lewis? Of course you would. My point is that there is no guarantee what okoye or branch is going to be in the future and you have to know for sure that they arent going to help you as much as jenkins in the present. Thus, i think we are worse off in the present, and no way to tell what the future holds. If you get three solid seasons out of jenkins, thats pretty good value for a high pick especially given the current state of our offense (ie we are good enough to win on the offensive side of the ball right now)

    There has to be a balance in the cap era between playing for the present and playing for the future. Lets assume for a second that jenkins was a free agent right now. I would have no problem paying huge money guaranteed to outbid others for him and i think many, many people on this board would agree. Paying big money up front has significant long term risks due to the potential cap impact. Whats the difference between trading at least a #2 pick in terms of balancing the future against the present?

    The bottom line is that jenkins is the perfect fit. Debate all you want about sands and the other guys out there that everyone wanted, we have all been screaming "sure, the moves our interesting, but what are we doing about the HUGE hole at defensive tackle?" I have been saying all along that there is really nothing we can do because players arent available that really help. This guy REALLY helps and he helps now. Okoye is 19. To repeat my prior post, in the history of the league, no 19 year old has ever made a significant impact at the defensive tackle spot in his first year. He is a great prospect, i would love to have him on the rams, but not only do i doubt that he will be available at 13, i dont see how anyone thinks that he is going to "solve" our problems at defensive tackle for a while, if ever.

    We were desparate for defensive tackle in 2001. We traded trent green to take damione lewis, who was lovies guy. No one was *****ing about that pick at the time. No one was *****ing when we took kennedy. Neither of those guys helped us. If we had a shot at a probowl guy back then in place of the uncertainty of a #2 pick, we would have grabbed it.

    The turley trade was a great trade by the rams in my view. Hindsight is 20-20. We were desparate for help at right tackle after the st clair debacle. We got a probowl level guy for a #2 pick AND we signed him to a big contract. Jenkins isnt even asking to renegotiate as far as anyone has read. The fact that turley got hurt after the fact was not foreseable, other than the fact that any of these guys can get hurt at any time, which includes the draft picks as well. Is jenkins a little more battle weary than turley was at the time? Yes, but remember, he played all 16 games last year at a pro bowl level and IF the rams think he checks out physically, i think its the same kind of trade. Go back and look at our #2 picks over the last ten years and tell me how many of them have turned out as good as jenkins?

    Bottom line, i am 100% supportive of a #2 for jenkins IF he checks out physically and i am prepared to add to it to get the deal done. I dont believe that its mortgaging our future to make that kind of deal anymore than we have uncertainty for our future anyway based on the unknown nature of any draft pick. Is it a risk? Sure. But risk equal reward in life and with jenkins we have a chance to win it all and without him, we can be a playoff team, but not realistically a champion and who knows what the future holds.

    I will leave you all with this thought. If you dont get out of bed in the morning, you wont get hit by a car. Certainty is a great thing, but there is nothing certain about the guy we pick with #13 anyway, and as a result, i am all for taking some risk to try and win a title.

    ramming speed to all

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    Agree 100% with you gc,if we are serious about fixing our main achilles heel (DT) and winning now we must get Jenkins. If that means a 2nd round pick then get it done,there is no such thing as a sure thing but Jenkins is clearly closer to that than any rookie who hasn't played a snap of pro-football. I said in FA that there was nobody who met our needs at that position,but now we have the perfect player who is on the trading block,I too say go get him Rams!!..

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    Lets assume for a second that jenkins was a free agent right now.
    If he was a FA he would get big money, but the fact that he has three years on his contract and his team is shopping him cast some doubt on him. Why would they want to give up a pro bowler, no one has more insight then the Panther on Jenkins.

    I think he is a perfect fit. But what is the one thing that makes him really the perfect DT is? The right price…

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    different teams have different agendas at different times. The panthers are cap strapped and they have other guys at the position. They are considering a trade to better balance their team and open money to spend elsewhere.

    None of this would have happened if jenkins showed up for the team workouts in good shape. The fact that he didnt show up clearly upset management.

    Guys i am not suggesting that jenkins is without risk. He has been injured in the past. The point is that no one is without risk and if he had no injury history and was a multi year probowler, there would be no shot in the world that you would have a chance at getting a guy with that kind of talent. All the more reason that letting pickett walk away was moronic after he led the nfc in tackles at his position and led the nfl in tackles for a loss at the defensive tackle spot.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel


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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    my theory is that we have two years to win the SB, with our current offensive superstars especially. After that we lose key players to retirement. We need to make steps to win now, and if that means giving up a first for Jenkins then i say we do it.

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    GC I want the guy bad, but even you have a price for the guy. Would you give up a 1st this year and a 1st next year?

    It’s going to come down too the price the Rams feel is worth the risk for reward. I would give a 2nd to get him today that how bad I want him.

    Whats the most you would give?

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    i think the most we would give as a team is our first, but we would haggle it down to a second

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    I say that if a #2 is what it takes to get the deal done, then do it. They can always trade down if there is no one there @ #13 that they like. It also eliminates the need to draft a high DT prospect this year and allowing them to focus on other needs.
    JUST WIN ONE FOR THE FANS


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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    If its going to take a #2, I see that as a draft day decision.

    If the 13th selction comes up, Branch and Okoye are gone, and the Rams can get Anderson, Adams, Carriker or Willis with the pick, then I would give up a second round choice.

    I thin we could do very well with a starting D line of:

    DE: Leonard Little
    DT: Kris Jenkins
    DT: L'Roi Glover
    DE: Jamaal Anderson
    (with a second team of J.Hall, J.Kennedy, C.Wroten, V.Adeyanju)

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    DE: Leonard Little
    DT: Kris Jenkins
    DT: L'Roi Glover
    DE: Jamaal Anderson
    (with a second team of J.Hall, J.Kennedy, C.Wroten, V.Adeyanju)
    I would be happy if thats how the line looked next season..

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH FINALLY my Ram fan brethern come around!!!!! GC I hope you remember our little pm chat we had, earlier this off-season, when I said trade a high draft pick for a proven vet?!! THIS is what I was talking about! I knew the chance would come aorund. Now we just have to make it happen. A 2nd round pick plus a little more compensation is nothing for Jenkins. Its exactly what we want and he's only 27... quit whinning!

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    I've never argued trading a number two pick for Jenkins, I've only argued trading a number one, and I totally disagree with the first post because:

    1. Any player at anytime in the NFL could be a bust due to the nature of the game, both sides can argue that each player will be injury proned, or not be an impact player.
    2. I don't know if someone Jenkins age is going to give us three solid years. Maybe one or two, but after that we are right back where we started. Jenkins isn't the only piece of the puzzle that is missing so saying our defense is one player away from a super bowl defense is also incorrect.
    3. For every bust draft pick you name I can name at least two free agent signings that were worse. I go back to my argument that the only true impact player we have obtained from another team was Anneas Williams. If we want to go by success rates, free agency/trades are just as bad if not worse than how the Rams have drafted. Everyone mentions the three tackles that didn't work out but no one mentions Kevin Carter, Grant Wistrom, or Leonard Little. If anything we should look into the way Martz/Lovie/Larry developed Lewis, Pickett, and Kennedy.
    4. You can't draft assuming players are going to be busts. Should we stop drafting d-tackles altogether because of the three bad ones?
    5. A lot of good impact players have been taken with the 13th pick. For example the same year, 2001, Jacksonville drafted pro bowl defensive tackle Marcus Stroud and Pittsburgh drafted another pro bowler, Casey Hampton with the 19th pick (both have better numbers then Jenkins). Deuce Mcallister, Nate Clements, Steve Hutchinson, and Reggie Wayne (all in 2001) were all way past the 13th pick, so arguing quality players aren't available isn't correct. Go back and read the NFL draft boards starting in 2000, and tell me you can't get quality players with your number one draft picks, looking back on them and recognizing all of the superstars on the board will change your mind.
    6. In todays NFL players are stepping in and playing in their first year. For example Matt Leinart, Ben Rothlesburger, Tye Hill, Marcus Coleston, Reggie Busch, and Vince Young all played well in their rookie seasons.
    7. Why are you talking like a 27 year old is entering his prime?
    Last edited by Krames41; -04-12-2007 at 01:05 PM.

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    Rambos's Avatar
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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    2. I don't know if someone Jenkins age is going to give us three solid years. Maybe one or two, but after that we are right back where we started
    He is only 27, Wroten should be ready in another year or draft another DT in the later rounds. Glover is about done.

    Jenkins isn't the only piece of the puzzle that is missing so saying our defense is one player away from a super bowl defense
    I don't think any of us feel we will have a SB D, all we need is a average D. With the SB O!


    4. You can't draft assuming players are going to be busts. Should we stop drafting d-tackles altogether because of the three bad ones?
    No but if you can get a proven one why not. From what I have seen DT take a year to play in the NFL. For the most part.

    A lot of good impact players have been taken with the 13th pick. For example the same year, 2001, Jacksonville drafted pro bowl defensive tackle Marcus Stroud and Pittsburgh drafted another pro bowler, Casey Hampton with the 19th pick (both have better numbers then Jenkins). Deuce Mcallister, Nate Clements, Steve Hutchinson, and Reggie Wayne were all way past the 13th pick, so arguing quality players aren't available isn't correct.
    No way we will know if Okoye or Branch will be on the board, any other DT at 13 looks like a reach. DT the number one need.

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    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    I'm confused on a couple of things. First, in many past threads it has been discussed that the DT position takes a long time to learn. So, why is so much hype being given to help from the draft for this position? If the DT position does take a few years to learn then Jenkins should be in his prime at 27 and, I believe 3 years is what I saw as the remainder of the his contract, should be good for a couple more years. Injury of course is a major factor but he remianed healthy last year so he should be over his past problem.

    But, his present condition is a legitimate concern. If he's at 400lbs and coupled with his past injuries then that greatly increases the risk. So, has anyone got recent information on the present condition of Jenkins? I don't recall any information if he is participating in Carolina's voluntary workouts, does any one know?

    The problem with waiting for a draft day trade is we have no options if Jenkins can't pass a physical. We already traded the pick and can't get it back. IMO we need to get this done prior to the draft and put a contengincy in the trade that Jenkins is healthy and in some sort of condition.

  15. #15
    keith m. klink Guest

    Re: ranking jenkins, okoye, kennedy and lewis

    why couldn't we get a DT in the 2nd , 3rd , 4th round that makes an impact. even if we traded down and got HARRELL OR TYLER , at the very end of the round , what , and i 'm just saying , what if we traded for jenkins , 2nd rounder , and somehow , branch fell to us at #13 , and they both crapped up the place , and a 7th rounder , or undrafted FA , outplayed them all , and got the starting nod. or WROTEN for that fact . what if jenkins ate himself out of the team or a re-injury of an old one , or was just outplayed by a young kid , fighting for a place on the team . all the guy's here that are screaming for us to ( have to get jenkins , branchor okoye ) , what would you say to that cenario . but to shed a light on THE GENERAL, i have been one of the guy's here that would not trade a 1st , 2nd , and maybe not even a third , for jenkins . and i really don't think i would take branch with the 13th pick either . that is just me, but your arguement , i justifiable , and holds much merit . but i also have some agreement to KRAMES41 reasoning. but to ease all your pain , LINEHAN believes that GINN JR. would have the same impact as HESTER did, so THE ST. LOUIS RAM'S with pick #13 take TED GINN JR. wr ohio st. and i will hold my head in my hands with a headache that only GOD could send , and cry .

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