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  1. #16
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Zygmunt isn't as ivolved in decision making as you think he is znrd. I bet you'll list Wistrom along with Fletcher with players he let get away? Those were Martz decisions. I remember martz commenting in the media about them at the time we didn't resign them. You ask for proof and yet you never show any.

    Martz was always ovbiously in charge of the draft, Zygmunt was more of a slient partner. Also from a recent column in the PD about Linehan working with him and JS in the draft, Linehan gave the impression that they pretty much let him handle the draft. LInehan also said he had learned alot from them about the draft.

    I think John Shaw is more of the GM then anyone on this team. You're right about Zygmunt just basically handleing the contracts, that's all he seems to do. But for all the ranting you do in your post the only things you have him pegged for are Fletcher and being a "bean counter". If these are the worst things he's done then I dont see why you hate him so much.

    "Second is, the good teams are smart enough to have the cap guy subordinate to a real football GM..."

    That just isn't true, no matter what their titles are the football guy will always be reporting to the cap guy, it's all about money in the end.


  2. #17
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    I don't know how or who made the call in the past. Going forward I think Softli, is a great addtion to the process.


    Softliís first draft in St. Louis. With Softli, Linehan, the scouts, team President John Shaw and President of Football Operations Jay Zygmunt on the same page,

    Along with outgoing Vice President of Pro Personnel Charley Armey, Softli provided the coaching staff with a top five list of available free agents at every position and, in some cases for positions of particular need, a list of 10.
    Linehan and Zygmunt took the reins from there, adding the likes of receiver Drew Bennett, linebacker Chris Draft and defensive end James Hall through free agent signings or trades.
    Softli brought some added touches to the scouting department to aid in the draft cause. One such addition was the horizontal draft board, which allows teams to separate players by overall ranking and by position.
    By the time draft day came, Softli and the others in the organization involved in the draft all were on the same page, a rare occurrence in draft rooms anyway, but even more impressive considering the relative lack of time the group has had to spend together.

    As the 13th pick drew near, nearly everyone in the room had agreed that Carriker would be the choice. When he fell to the Rams, it became a no brainer. That trend continued for most of the day.
    The only guy I would like to add to this group is our own Nick, that would put us over the top.

  3. #18
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    Saying that a lot of picks don't live up to their salary is completely different than saying its a "crap shoot." (Plus, you'll note I said "average or better" and you're talking about justifying expenditures...not the same thing.)
    Ummmmmm, yes it is. If you drafted someone and paid first round money to get someone that is only "average or better", then you just rolled the dice and came up losing money. How else do you measure the worth of a draft pick other than you just paid someone a first round contract for talent that's worth a 3rd to 6th pick contract? Your luck in the first round is just as plausible as that in the following rounds. I would venture to say that more good to excellent players come from the third to fourth rounds than any others. I don't have any stats to share, just a personal observation, but I'm sure Nick would have some stats on his laptop.

    Just perusing last year's set of first round picks, I think you'd be pressed to say more than a handful were not at least average for their first year. Bottom line -- 75-percent of the time, the guy drafted in the first round will be capable of making some contribution to your team (and that doesn't mean he isn't overpaid).
    Well looking at one year does not a trend make. Also, making "some" contribution is not enough return on a first round investment my friend, in my opinion. I don't mean any disrespect chiguy, maybe you're a glass half full type of person, and I'm a glass half empty when it comes to this subject. I've seen enough of your posts to know you are knowlegable about the Rams and football. Nevertheless, I'm right about this, so NA NA NA NA NA! ;oP


    As to Z.NRD

    Your prejudice toward Zygmunt is so profound, that you are incapable of having a civil or rational discussion regarding the man. You BACKTRACK in your latest essay in response to me that "Bearing in mind that I did not refer to EVERY position. I said SAFETY." But previously in your first response to me you say "Except they pay the same for the 12th pick whoever it is, so it's not "price." So do they pay the 12th pick no matter who it is (inferring whatever position it may be the same, or is it because he is a Safety, that price does come into play?) Frankly, I read your rant and came away empty. You want me to prove Zygmunt is a football man, knows contracts and salary caps, and is worthy of being in the Ram's front office having decision making ability regarding personnel decisions. I DON'T HAVE TO. You are making the claim (unsuccessfully) that he doesn't belong in his position, therefore, the burden is on you, not me to prove otherwise. The Ram's organization made that decision. Now, I'm supposed to take the word of someone claiming to be a thirty year fan from Maine over that of a successful organization, under which a Super Bowl was won, followed by a NFC Championship? You state that Ram's PD has unequivocally stated that Zygmunt has final veto power on all draft selections. Really? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! What I do believe is that you are a disgruntled Zygmunt hater, who's hatred centralizes over Polamalu not being drafted by the Rams, and your posts to this thread are tainted by this agenda. I applaud your zeal and passion though, and you have, if nothing else, provided for some interesting fodder in this thread.
    Last edited by bigredman; -06-05-2007 at 10:19 PM.
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  4. #19
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    Ummmmmm, yes it is. If you drafted someone and paid first round money to get someone that is only "average or better", then you just rolled the dice and came up losing money.
    Ummm, no its not. There is a big difference between overpaying someone who still contributes and paying someone who can't do anything. In the first round, you are nearly guaranteed to get someone who will be able to at least contribute to special teams if not as a rotational guy. In that sense, the first round is not a crapshoot at all.

    Are they getting paid what they are worth? I agree that this is more of a "crapshoot" (but it still isn't the same thing), but how is that different than *any* contract you sign? Heck, no only does it mean that some guys are overpaid, it means that some guys are underpaid.

    I just don't want everyone pretending that first round players are just "iffy" as to whether or not they can play in the NFL. Most of the time, they can...just not always as stars.


    How else do you measure the worth of a draft pick other than you just paid someone a first round contract for talent that's worth a 3rd to 6th pick contract?
    Uh, by on-the-field performance?

    Your luck in the first round is just as plausible as that in the following rounds. I would venture to say that more good to excellent players come from the third to fourth rounds than any others.
    This is implausible on its face. Not only does it suggest that all of the efforts teams put into studying players doesn't pay off, but it implies that they don't learn from their mistakes over time. Given the amount of money at stake for everyone involved, that's simply not believable. The only other way your scenario (3-4 round players excel as frequently as 1 round players) makes sense is if the whole enterprise (i.e., succeeding in the NFL) is a random draw (like the lottery). I'm sure no one here believes that -- there are obvious reasons that guys like Adam Carricker are football prospects and we are not.


    Well looking at one year does not a trend make.
    It was illustrative. Give me some common player rating scale and I'll crunch the data.

    Also, making "some" contribution is not enough return on a first round investment my friend, in my opinion.
    And if you go back and read what I wrote, you'll see that this isn't what I'm saying either.


    I don't mean any disrespect chiguy, maybe you're a glass half full type of person, and I'm a glass half empty when it comes to this subject. I've seen enough of your posts to know you are knowlegable about the Rams and football. Nevertheless, I'm right about this, so NA NA NA NA NA! ;oP
    Lord knows I'm not a glass half full kind of guy. In fact, that's why I replied originally -- people were making it seem like we've just had bad luck in the draft when its really that we've performed poorly.


    As to Z.NRD

    Your prejudice toward Zygmunt is so profound, that you are incapable of having a civil or rational discussion regarding the man. You BACKTRACK in your latest essay in response to me that "Bearing in mind that I did not refer to EVERY position. I said SAFETY." But previously in your first response to me you say "Except they pay the same for the 12th pick whoever it is, so it's not "price." So do they pay the 12th pick no matter who it is (inferring whatever position it may be the same, or is it because he is a Safety, that price does come into play?) Frankly, I read your rant and came away empty. You want me to prove Zygmunt is a football man, knows contracts and salary caps, and is worthy of being in the Ram's front office having decision making ability regarding personnel decisions. I DON'T HAVE TO. You are making the claim (unsuccessfully) that he doesn't belong in his position, therefore, the burden is on you, not me to prove otherwise. The Ram's organization made that decision. Now, I'm supposed to take the word of someone claiming to be a thirty year fan from Maine over that of a successful organization, under which a Super Bowl was won, followed by a NFC Championship? You state that Ram's PD has unequivocally stated that Zygmunt has final veto power on all draft selections. Really? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! What I do believe is that you are a disgruntled Zygmunt hater, who's hatred centralizes over Polamalu not being drafted by the Rams, and your posts to this thread are tainted by this agenda. I applaud your zeal and passion though, and you have, if nothing else, provided for some interesting fodder in this thread.[/QUOTE]

  5. #20
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by z.nrd View Post
    #1, Obviously, teams---all teams---don't want to draft a guy high who isn't worth the money. And that includes a certain amount of position slotting. However. There are gray areas in that. Rigid Position Slotting can mean ignoring real football value.

    And that's what the Rams do. Or did anyway (JZ may have learned that lesson the hard way.)

    See, according to the Rigid Slotting argument, no safety is worth 12th round pick money. That mean LANDRY is not worth the pay you give a 12th pick. Why? He's a safety. Neither is Polamalu worth 12th pick money. Why? He's a safety. In spite of any personnel assessment of his actual value as a football player.

    Rigid slotting is arbitrary and ignores actual football value. There are going to be safeties worth the 12th pick. A rigid system made up in front of a computer by a guy with no training or background in coaching or scouting or real personnel assessment can't tell the difference. Remember, this is the same guy who arbitrarily decided you don't give a middle linebacker 3 million dollars...and as a result, Fletcher was allowed to walk. Since then if you add up what was paid to Duncan, Claiborne, and Witherspoon, it is far more than double what they would have paid just to keep Fletcher. So rigid position slotting by a non-personnel guy has its dangers.

    Bearing in mind that I did not refer to EVERY position. I said SAFETY. Clearly, it was visible at the time and since that Polamalu was worth the 12th pick and worth 12th pick money. Unless you think it was better to have a 3rd 1st round DT on the bench plus Jason Sehorn at FS in 2003 than Polamalu (and Polamalu could have played FS in 2003), and unless you think that a secondary with Atogwe at FS and Chavous at SS in 2007 is better than a secondary with Chavous at FS (where he belongs) and Polamalu at SS.

    I assume you don't think either thing, since it's obvious in each case what is and would have been better.

    So, arbitrary position slotting is not the god's gift it appears to be to some.

    #2. The idea that just hanging around Rams Park writing contracts makes Zygmunt anything but a bean counter just flies in the face of evidence. Because of course there is no evidence he knows the first thing about personnel or team-building. He defers to his coaches and scouts, as well he should, in which case, you have to ask---why is he in charge? What purpose does it serve to have him in charge? So far the only policy we can actually identify him with is Rigid Position Slotting (Fletcher, Polamalu), and he may even have dropped THAT, since after all, he ended up paying FAR more for Witherspoon than he ever would have for Fletcher.

    If you believe there is any evidence whatsoever that he contributes anything but bean counter knowledge, spell it out---with proof. What has Jay Zygmunt ever done to impress you with his wide and vast football knowledge? Don't just give me the empty mantra about how he must know stuff---prove it.

    And if he is just going to defer to his coaches and scouts on personnel matters (except for the bean-counters Rigid Position Slotting thing which arguably cost the Rams far more than it ever gained them)...then, what earthly good IS he?

    Wouldn't the Rams be much better off with a real GM who knows the trade and keep up the hard way, through coaching and/or scouting? Someone who was actually held accountable for his decisions while learning the craft? (Zygmunt never has been and never will be held accountable for anything regarding actual team management.)

    So why IS he in charge?

    There is only one answer to that which accounts for all the real evidence and meets the test of logic.

    He is in charge cause he is John Shaw's trusted ally and proxy, thereby allowing ole JS to function as an absentee president.

    If you have any REAL evidence of anything JZ has done besides negotiate contracts, provide it. No more empty lectures about how he MUST know something because because because well he must. Let's see it. Spell it out.

    Otherwise, the rest of us will just have our accord with logic, evidence, and reality, and assume he is in charge for exactly the reason I said...he's JS's ally. That's it.

    His greatest virtue is that he delegates and does no harm.

    But then, as I said, if that's his greatest virtue, who needs him? Better to have a real football GM type in charge. Not a wannabe who does nothing and CAN do nothing when it comes to real personnel assessment.

    And I do know who has veto power on the Rams draft. It's Zygmunt. Why? The PD has already told us that more than once.

    #3. Zygmunt knows the salary cap?

    Sorry but if that's the best you can do, the man looks even more useless.

    For 2 reasons.

    First is, he is actually not particularly good at the salary cap. At best he's average. Lots of teams are under the cap. There's no magic to that. But the BETTER teams do something JZ has failed to do. They are not only under the cap. They are under the cap while also knowing which players to keep. They have BOTH the players AND the cap space. And I'm not talking about no-brainers like the team stars (Pace, Holt, etc.) I am talking about the next tier down...JZ has no clue which of those players to keep. So basically, he just let the market dictate things to him and let them ALL walk. For example, until Linehan came aboard and brought with him the idea that you should extend key players early, JZ never extended ANYONE who wasn't a no-brainer star. So for example he let Fletcher get away when in fact Fletcher was affordable AND contrary to popular myth, it WAS possible to keep both him and Little (look at the contract numbers if you don't believe me).

    Second is, the good teams are smart enough to have the cap guy subordinate to a real football GM...someone who knows team-building, real football value, and personnel assessment. See, a guy like that, if he's good, will listen to his cap guy, but then because he knows real football value, will know who to keep and who not to keep, who to extend and who not to extend. Again, I don't mean the no-brainer stars, I mean the guys like Fletcher.

    Here's the position the Rams were in before Linehan because they did not have a true football GM in charge. Zygmunt could contribute NOTHING to actual personnel assessment. He doesn't know it and what's more---he doesn't CLAIM to know it.

    Martz was then operating in a vacuum defined by his own very poor evaluation skills. So what did Martz do when it came to defense? Listen to Lovie. Mistake. (More on Lovie in a second.) So, Lovie believes Duncan is nearly as good as Fletcher for half the money. What can Zygmunt do about that? Nothing. He hears "half the money" and figures he slotted MLB "appropriately" so to speak. Result? Disaster. Later, to rectify the disaster, they end up paying twice as much for Witherspoon as they would have for Fletcher. So much for slotting.....

    Meanwhile, Lovie goes to Chicago and what happens there? The GM does not give Lovie the players he wants (cause Lovie was terrible at personnel evaluation). Instead the Chicago GM gives Lovie the KINDS of players he wants. Briggs, Harris, and so on. That's because the Chicago GM knows how to assess talent. Why? Cause among other things he was a scout for 14 years.

    All Zygmunt could do was listen to Lovie.

    So, again, what use is he?

    A good true football GM will know personnel plus have a guy keeping track of the numbers for him. Zygmunt is only half that equation.

    So, again, who needs him?

    Well, that's an idle question. He is never going anywhere as long as Shaw is in charge. He will not be held accountable. And he's not there cause he "knows football." He's there cause he's Shaw's proxy. That's it.

    ...
    Very well done. Your conclusion maybe right? However, your asking others to provide evidence in supporting thier views and your views are mostly supported by assumptions. My question is why are you asking others to provide evidence when you do not?

    Lastly, in 1999 did Zygmunt and Shaw work for the organization? IF so, how do you explain thier lack of knowledge for that year?

  6. #21
    bigredman's Avatar
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    You crack me up chiguy. You big lug ya. (wrapping your head with my arm and giving you a noogie). You just hold on to those beliefs my friend if that's what gets you through those cold Chicago winters. Frankly, I don't give an s... to argue the point any further! I have no emotional investment actually, just an inclination to stir things up among my brethren here (which I'm guessing you surmised and played along with even knowing I'm right, you are wrong, and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, the sky is blue, and....well...you get the picture.)
    Last edited by bigredman; -06-07-2007 at 12:01 AM.
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  7. #22
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    To clarify -- I do not currently live in, nor have I ever lived remotely close to, Chicago. I visit it once or twice a year, but that's it. CHI does NOT stand for Chicago.

  8. #23
    helorm341 is offline Registered User
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    To clarify -- I do not currently live in, nor have I ever lived remotely close to, Chicago. I visit it once or twice a year, but that's it. CHI does NOT stand for Chicago.
    Does your avatar have nothing to do with chicago either?

  9. #24
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Even if Zygmunt or someone else (1) believes that #12 is too high to draft safeties, and (2) because of that, the Rams passed on Polamalu (I, by the way, believe this is all speculation and conjecture), so what?

    Yes, there have been some very good safeties drafted in the top 12, but if you ask every coach to rank the order of positions by importance to overall success, I doubt any would have safety at or near the top. In fact, most would probably have safety ranked near the bottom.

    Safeties succeed when teams have talent on the D line and CBs who can single-cover. This allows safeties to roam the secondary and make plays. Put Polamalu on the 2005-2006 Rams defenses, and I'm not sure he be such a star.

    The Rams went with a player who was considered a top prospect at a key position - DT. It didn't work out. Pointing fingers now, though, serves no purpose.

  10. #25
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by helorm341 View Post
    Does your avatar have nothing to do with chicago either?
    It obviously does, but that doesn't mean I live in Chicago. I grew up in St. Louis and as a Cards fan, I find miserable Cubs fans funny. But I wasn't yelling at him about it - its a common misperception. I was just pointing out that his perception wasn't right.

    Its all in the pronunciation. Its not CH-I-guy. Its pronounced K-I-guy. Now can anyone figure out where it *does* come from?

  11. #26
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Screen name: "Chiguy"...Cubs fan photo....location listed as "ILLINOIS"....not sure how anyone would draw such a silly conclusion like you being from that area?
    "You people point your 'f'in' finger and say theres the bad guy....what that make you....good?" Tony Montana

  12. #27
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    It obviously does, but that doesn't mean I live in Chicago. I grew up in St. Louis and as a Cards fan, I find miserable Cubs fans funny. But I wasn't yelling at him about it - its a common misperception. I was just pointing out that his perception wasn't right.

    Its all in the pronunciation. Its not CH-I-guy. Its pronounced K-I-guy. Now can anyone figure out where it *does* come from?

    Lemme guess, Kansas/Illinois ? I do know that you are a Kansas fan.

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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiguy View Post
    To clarify -- I do not currently live in, nor have I ever lived remotely close to, Chicago. I visit it once or twice a year, but that's it. CHI does NOT stand for Chicago.
    What is your problem man? What, CHI stand for "Can Hate Incessantly"? It was an innocent observation and comment. Sheeeesh.
    :\

    Just busting you cahonies again, buddy. The pronunciation of chi as ki is born from the Greek alphabet letter X. So, while you are not X-Man, you are X-Guy. Hmmmmmmmm. Maybe a metro-sexual version of X-Man that's more in touch with his feminine side? I can identify with that!
    Last edited by bigredman; -06-08-2007 at 07:46 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by helorm341 View Post
    Zygmunt isn't as ivolved in decision making as you think he is znrd. I bet you'll list Wistrom along with Fletcher with players he let get away? Those were Martz decisions. I remember martz commenting in the media about them at the time we didn't resign them. You ask for proof and yet you never show any.

    Martz was always ovbiously in charge of the draft, Zygmunt was more of a slient partner. Also from a recent column in the PD about Linehan working with him and JS in the draft, Linehan gave the impression that they pretty much let him handle the draft. LInehan also said he had learned alot from them about the draft.

    I think John Shaw is more of the GM then anyone on this team. You're right about Zygmunt just basically handleing the contracts, that's all he seems to do. But for all the ranting you do in your post the only things you have him pegged for are Fletcher and being a "bean counter". If these are the worst things he's done then I dont see why you hate him so much.

    "Second is, the good teams are smart enough to have the cap guy subordinate to a real football GM..."

    That just isn't true, no matter what their titles are the football guy will always be reporting to the cap guy, it's all about money in the end.

    I've been out of town. I'm back now, and I can say there are a number of false assertions here. Now when I say "false" I am not going by memory. Every time I discuss the Rams front office I look into the archives and read old PD accounts of what happened. This is not my opinion---this is what I learned from readng up on it. There's also a number of places where you flat misconstrue what is being argued, and therefore your responses really do not address the points being made.

    First, Zygmunt was involved in decision making when Martz was coach. That does not mean he dictated things, but he was certainly involved. He had a voice in what went on. Shaw says that; Martz says that.

    As for Fletcher...that was not a pure Martz decision. Zygmunt's contribution to that was to slot the MLB position. In other words, the issue for JZ was not Fletcher buit middle linebackers, meaning, how much gets paid to a middle linebacker in terms of the Rams position slotting. JZ came out and claimed credit for that. JZ was the one who brought position slotting to the team---it's his influence, and his policy. Martz bought into it, but that just means JZ had a big influence on Martz at that point. And they decided that MLB was not worth 3 million a year. Again, this was not a decision based on FLETCHER or his PLAY, but on the idea of what MLBs are supposed to be worth capwise.

    The above info is based on an article called "Cap Dancers: How the Rams Navigate the Pitfalls of the Salary Cap," from 09/06/02. I would post it but for some reason I can't post articles or links or copied material of any kind on this site. There are plenty of other things in the archive on Fletcher...and your version isn't supported by the evidence.

    And btw, on evidence, since I can't paste copied material here, check out my home site, where I stack the board with copied archive material. I've been over the evidence for all of this so many times I've forgotten how many. I can supply you with archive material out yer ears if you want...but, as I said, to see it, just ask and I will link you to the other site. That will have to do until I can actually cut and paste links and articles here.

    Some other points.

    No one denied Martz was in charge of the draft. It's obvious he was. No one in this thread said he wasn;t.

    JZ was not a silent partner---he was an active, vocal, contributing partner, and in the earlier years, before they fell out, a big influence on Martz. Usually, according to JZ himself, the input had to do with things like position slotting.

    Of course Linehan handles the draft. That, too, is obvious, and again, no one said otherwise. No one in this thread said that JZ makes draft picks.

    John Shaw may be in charge but he is no GM. A true GM has experience with scouting, personnel, coaching, and/or team-building. Shaw has none of that...which is why he hired 2 GMs in his career (Ortmayer and then in effect Vermeil who was President of Football Operations and therefore had complete contractually mandated control over personnel, with very rare vetos from Shaw).

    Shaw however is mostly absent now. Therefore he leaves JZ as his proxy in his place.

    Since Martz, JZ does far more than handle the contracts...after Vermeil, HE became president of football operations, which gives him a lot of contractually mandated power. He is in on everything. He delegates, and doesn't impose decisions, but he is the man in charge, no question. That's according to everyone who writes on the Rams for a living.

    I didn't rant in my posts. I made a coherent argument. One you haven't even mentioned so I am not even sure you get it. Re-read those posts and see if you can figure out what my actual argument is, cause you are not responding to it and don't seem to be offering any hints that you know what it is. Really, read it again.

    For example, you COMPLETELY don't get the cap guy/GM bit you talk about. I didn't say GMs ignore the cap. That's ridiculous. What I said was that real football GM types rank higher than the cap guy. As a result, they can make honest personnel decisions while also staying under the cap. The cap guy can't tell the GM what to do---on the vast majority of teams, he is a functionary and advisor and subordinate to the football GM. With JZ determining policy, you end up with abstract things like position slotting...and that's regardless of any honest personnel assessment of the player. The Rams run it back-aszwards from the normal model.
    Last edited by z.nrd; -06-11-2007 at 09:59 AM.

  15. #30
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    Ummmmmm, yes it is. If you drafted someone and paid first round money to get someone that is only "average or better", then you just rolled the dice and came up losing money. How else do you measure the worth of a draft pick other than you just paid someone a first round contract for talent that's worth a 3rd to 6th pick contract? Your luck in the first round is just as plausible as that in the following rounds. I would venture to say that more good to excellent players come from the third to fourth rounds than any others. I don't have any stats to share, just a personal observation, but I'm sure Nick would have some stats on his laptop.



    Well looking at one year does not a trend make. Also, making "some" contribution is not enough return on a first round investment my friend, in my opinion. I don't mean any disrespect chiguy, maybe you're a glass half full type of person, and I'm a glass half empty when it comes to this subject. I've seen enough of your posts to know you are knowlegable about the Rams and football. Nevertheless, I'm right about this, so NA NA NA NA NA! ;oP


    As to Z.NRD

    Your prejudice toward Zygmunt is so profound, that you are incapable of having a civil or rational discussion regarding the man. You BACKTRACK in your latest essay in response to me that "Bearing in mind that I did not refer to EVERY position. I said SAFETY." But previously in your first response to me you say "Except they pay the same for the 12th pick whoever it is, so it's not "price." So do they pay the 12th pick no matter who it is (inferring whatever position it may be the same, or is it because he is a Safety, that price does come into play?) Frankly, I read your rant and came away empty. You want me to prove Zygmunt is a football man, knows contracts and salary caps, and is worthy of being in the Ram's front office having decision making ability regarding personnel decisions. I DON'T HAVE TO. You are making the claim (unsuccessfully) that he doesn't belong in his position, therefore, the burden is on you, not me to prove otherwise. The Ram's organization made that decision. Now, I'm supposed to take the word of someone claiming to be a thirty year fan from Maine over that of a successful organization, under which a Super Bowl was won, followed by a NFC Championship? You state that Ram's PD has unequivocally stated that Zygmunt has final veto power on all draft selections. Really? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU! What I do believe is that you are a disgruntled Zygmunt hater, who's hatred centralizes over Polamalu not being drafted by the Rams, and your posts to this thread are tainted by this agenda. I applaud your zeal and passion though, and you have, if nothing else, provided for some interesting fodder in this thread.
    I will respond to you (though not to your off-the-charts personalizing) in due time.

    Let's just say your account is not backed up by the archive of evidence, which is easy enough to show. And you are wrong on several counts.

    And as for that personalizing. You're doing that, not me. So think hard about who is being rational and who is not.

    When I come back I will write a nice rich response full of what we learn when we actually read up on this stuff and know the evidence.

    Try to keep it civil when you respond...I only care about the evidence and the arguments, not your overblown personalizations. Especially since you are flat dead wrong on several counts regarding the front office...as all the evidence we have demonstrates.

    I don't know if you can do that but at least give it a shot.

    I've been out of town but I;m back now. You'll get your response. See if you can manage to address issues and arguments instead of trying to make the poster the issue next time.

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