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  1. #31
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRAZYHORNS View Post
    Very well done. Your conclusion maybe right? However, your asking others to provide evidence in supporting thier views and your views are mostly supported by assumptions. My question is why are you asking others to provide evidence when you do not?

    Lastly, in 1999 did Zygmunt and Shaw work for the organization? IF so, how do you explain thier lack of knowledge for that year?
    I can provide all the evidence you want since this is all BASED on evidence. (Though all of this would be easier if an admin would explain to me why if can't paste links and/or articles on this site...no matter, I can name them and give dates and type in quotes. Just tell me what you want evidence FOR. And, lol...no, none of this is "assumptions.")

    And what I asked people to do was tell me all the things JZ has done if his being in charge serves a purpose. Tellingly, no one said anything about that...instead, everyone just goes yeah well where's YOUR evidence. Surely if this guy deserves all this power you guys can name some things he has done? (Even I can think of a few!)

    Zygmunt had no input in 99. His rise in power started in 2000 when Shaw went absentee and named him (JZ) his stand-in and proxy.

    Shaw didn't have as much input in 99 as some assume but he was an important influence in 99. However, I don't see what that has to do with anything, since the argument I am making is more or less this---why did Shaw put JZ in charge instead of a real football GM with a background in scouting, personnel, and/or coaching? Now, I am not clear how discussing Shaw circa 99 answers that.

    I made a very specific argument. You seem not to be responding to it.
    Last edited by z.nrd; -06-11-2007 at 11:00 AM.


  2. #32
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    No offense (well, maybe a little), but this thread is making me consider coming up with an Anti-Clannie for "Most Boring Thread Ever."

    For those of you who feel the need to spend their time convincing themselves, and trying to convince others, that the Rams' Front Office is tainted by morons who know nothing about football and will continue to make bad decisions from now until they are forced out, may I make a suggestion?

    Try needlepoint. Rosy Grier does it. It could be a fun and calming hobby that might fill the void in your life.

  3. #33
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    that the Rams' Front Office is tainted by morons who know nothing about football and will continue to make bad decisions from now until they are forced out.
    There's a thread about that?

    Cause, I am in a different thread where there are valid and legit arguments on both sides asking if the way the Rams distributed power in the front office makes sense.

    May I make a suggestion? If you don't like a topic, don't read it. Unless there's a board rule against Boring Threads.

  4. #34
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    The only people who really know how the power is distributed are those in the room when decisions are made.

    None of us were in the room.

    Bernie wasn't in the room.

    Jim Thomas wasn't in the room.

    Howard Balzer wasn't in the room.

    John Hadley wasn't in the room.

    I find it exceedingly tiresome when people who have no facts quote other people who have no facts and then claim that they know the answer. Add a sprinkle of meaninless hindsight to the equation, and what you get is a whole lot of gobbledy-gook.

  5. #35
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Then if thats your philosophy then you have no interest in the topic. And yet, here you are, in the thread...

    Actually, a lot has been written about the things you say no one knows about. The stuff that was written (and it goes back years now) is based on the comments from the people in the front office themselves.

    We know full well how power is distributed with the Rams. They tell us constantly. That organization is no secret.

    And given that, it's legit to discuss it and debate it.

    If you don't think it can be done, sounds to me like you should honor your own philosophy and say nothing.

    I think it can be done, and I honor my own philosophy by reading up on what the Rams have told people about the structure of the organization.

  6. #36
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by z.nrd View Post
    Then if thats your philosophy then you have no interest in the topic. And yet, here you are, in the thread...
    That's because... I'M EVERYWHERE!!!! BWAHAHAHA!

    Actually, a lot has been written about the things you say no one knows about. The stuff that was written (and it goes back years now) is based on the comments from the people in the front office themselves.
    Ugh... right. If you think that everything that is written by a sportswriter (claiming to have a Front Office person as a a source) is fact, you haven't been paying attention.

    We know full well how power is distributed with the Rams. They tell us constantly. That organization is no secret.
    No, they don't tell us. Sportwriters tell us what they think based upon very few facts. That does not mean they are correct. If you've ever been part of a decisionmaking team, you'd know that, titles and public image aside, the true hierarchy is often determined by other factors, such as the strength of personality, assertiveness, and many other factors.

    But, hey... if you want to believe that Zygmunty is a power hungry moron, or some other sportswriter slant, be my guest.

  7. #37
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    LOL. So you think these longterm St. Louis sportswriters (Thomas, Karriker, Balzer, Miklasz) make **** up and the Rams just sigh and permit it? Or the people who they work for go "yeah well none of it's true, but who cares"?

    And that's all based on what....you saying so?

    THAT is naive.

    And yes the Rams explain their own organization. They would be idiots not to and plus there's no reason not to. They always have and they always will. There's never any mystery about how a football team is run. We know how the organizations work in every league city. We know how the Baltimore scouting department is set up, we know how the Chargers are structured...all of it. This is not the pentagon we're talking about. There are no secrets.

    And you're here because you're into the topic.

    It's just that the people who completely uncritically defend the front office tend not to get lectures about how no one knows anything and the press is all lies. It's only those who ask questions about the Rams organization that get that mantra.
    Last edited by HUbison; -06-11-2007 at 08:31 PM. Reason: watch the language

  8. #38
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    OH boy, this is going to be fun. (Please MODS, a little slack on the rope here, cause he's beggin' for it)
    Quote Originally Posted by z.nrd View Post
    I will respond to you (though not to your off-the-charts personalizing) in due time.
    What personalizing? I didn't assert my name onto anything or claim anything unto myself. Get a dictionary sonny.

    Let's just say your account is not backed up by the archive of evidence, which is easy enough to show. And you are wrong on several counts.
    Let's just say I made no account of anything. I wasn't there and didn't claim to be. Secondly, what "archive" of evidence? If its so "easy to show", then show it. Again, you claim I'm wrong, but have no substantive response explaining why.

    And as for that personalizing. You're doing that, not me. So think hard about who is being rational and who is not.
    Again, personalizing? I didn't claim anything under my name or apply a fact as originating from me. On the other hand, you have in fact personalized all your assertions as proclaiming to be the expert on all things Zygmunt, and we must believe you because you said so and you have all this crazy evidence, and you want us to disprove your evidence THAT YOU'VE NEVER SHARED! I think that pretty much clears up who the rational one is.

    When I come back I will write a nice rich response full of what we learn when we actually read up on this stuff and know the evidence.
    Oh boy. I'm all a tingle in anticipation,but aren't you back already? By the way. Who's this "we" to which you refer? Eh, Sybil? Wait a minute, earlier you claimed you have an archive of evidence that's easy enough to show already. Now you are telling me you have to read up on it? If you have to read up on it now, doesn't that mean you didn't know what you were talking about before now? I'm sorry, that was insensitive. I should have said you were factually challenged.

    Try to keep it civil when you respond...I only care about the evidence and the arguments, not your overblown personalizations. Especially since you are flat dead wrong on several counts regarding the front office...as all the evidence we have demonstrates.

    I don't know if you can do that but at least give it a shot.
    I'm civil. I've been smiling the whole time I've been typing here. Sure, YOU care only about the evidence (the stuff you don't have, but will read up on), the arguments (based solely on your prejudice), and oh yes, your proclamation that I'm wrong based on "all the evidence we have" (which of course you still have to read up on, or your alternate personality will read up on)

    I've been out of town but I;m back now. You'll get your response. See if you can manage to address issues and arguments instead of trying to make the poster the issue next time.
    To this I must surrender in defeat. I just can't wait until your response. They've been so stimulating so far....NOT! (By the way, bring your A game sonny. AvengerRam and I are students of the law and thrive on this stuff)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.-yawning.jpg  
    Last edited by bigredman; -06-11-2007 at 10:34 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #39
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Zach, you seem to be limited in your understanding of the media, so let me give you a hand here.

    In your world, there's only "facts" and "lies."

    In the real world, there are many other categories:

    Facts: Actual information verified by a reliable source.

    Spins: The slanting of facts, often by highlighting certain aspects, while downplaying others (something done by both the media and the team itself).

    Opinions: An individual's personal viewpoint of the significance and meaning of facts (which, often times are extremely limited).

    Propaganda: The deliberate slanting of facts designed to prompt the reader to adopt a viewpoint.

    Hopeful Guesses: A tactic made famous by John Hadley, in which the sportswriter guesses at a fact (sometimes involving something that has not yet occurred), and then, if the guess proves to be correct (or close to correct) the sportwriter will then openly pat himself on the back.

    A sophisticated reader recognizes that there are many shades of grey in the categories of "information" conveyed from the team, through the media, to fans. It is up to each of us to assess where the truth lies.

    You seem to believe that you know quite a bit about the team and how it is run. Of course, a wise man once said that "true knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."

  10. #40
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    AR, you seem prone to lecturing of the "let me tell you the truth cause god speaks to me" variety, not always while knowing what you're talking about, so let me respond with some common sense.

    1. The massive archive of material on this includes a ton of interviews with and direct quotations from Shaw and Zygmunt, plus regular PD articles dedicated to explaining the front office.

    2. In a small media town like St. Louis the Rams or any franchise like them are not lofty gods completely unavailable to the press, which is how a lowly fan might imagine them, but suits with jobs in the entertainment industry conscious of their PR. Any town like that works the same. Across time there is a kind of symbiotic thing between the suits and the reporters. The suits need the reporters and vice versa.

    3. In that environment, no team would be so monumentally stupid that they would actually let gross inaccuracies and distortions go by as regular reporting without saying something. In fact, the Rams have come out several times to straighten out stories that had inaccuracies in them. For example, when some were reporting that Martz was grabbing personnel power, Shaw AND Zygmunt AND Martz all came out to show Martz's contract, which gave him personnel power. That's just one example.

    4. Anyone with half a brain in their head knows how the press works. You never, ever, ever take one account as gospel, but instead multiply them and compare them. So for example anyone who read just Jim Thomas would eventually get a limited view because one guy can't say everything and there is never any such thing anywhere as a reporter without an unconscious bias...doesn't happen. So the trick is to read everything and know how to balance and sift them. For example, on the Rams-position-slotted-Palomalu-out-of-the-12th-pick story, there are now 4 versions: Hadley, Balzer, Miklasz, and CBS Sportsline. Armey is given as the source in one of those reports. If any one of those versions said something not held up by the others, you would have to wonder about it.

    5. Naive press skepticism is simply...naive. There is a sophisticated and useful version of press skepticism (see point #4) and then there is the naive version. The naive version claims things like star lifelong professional beat reporters like Jim Thomas can't be believed, in spite of the fact that he's known to the teams he reports on, would lose credibility and therefore his job if he just continually cranked out falsehoods and inaccuracies, and so on. Usually, naive skepticism is used to defend the status quo without thinking too much. So, if there is a criticism of the front office, some yahoo comes along and says "can't believe what you read!" which is best translated as "I won't abide criticism though I don't have an argument so I will use a lazy fallback tactic."

    All the above is known to virtually everyone so pretty much should count as the obvious.

    But, later, I will get off this distrction dodge non-issue and back to the real issue.

    What do we know about how Shaw structured this organization and is it a good plan?
    Last edited by z.nrd; -06-12-2007 at 11:16 AM.

  11. #41
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigredman View Post
    What is your problem man? What, CHI stand for "Can Hate Incessantly"? It was an innocent observation and comment. Sheeeesh.
    :\

    Just busting you cahonies again, buddy. The pronunciation of chi as ki is born from the Greek alphabet letter X. So, while you are not X-Man, you are X-Guy. Hmmmmmmmm. Maybe a metro-sexual version of X-Man that's more in touch with his feminine side? I can identify with that!
    Heh, no. My wife probably wishes.

    GreatestShow is close...I live in southern Illinois and went to school in Kansas. Chi is from my fraternity; this is just a name I picked up for bar trivia years ago and never dumped.

  12. #42
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    You never, ever, ever take one account as gospel, but instead multiply them and compare them.
    So for example anyone who read just Jim Thomas would eventually get a limited view because one guy can't say everything and there is never any such thing anywhere as a reporter without an unconscious bias...doesn't happen.
    That being said how do I the reader, know the truth from the spin, reporters bias ect?

    If two reporters report the same lie, does it become a fact?

    Bad data in is always bad data out period.
    Last edited by Rambos; -06-12-2007 at 06:05 PM.

  13. #43
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    To paraphrase Woody Allen, Zach, if my evidence professor from law school heard the way you define the term "evidence," he would never stop throwing up.

    As it is, for me to care any less about the issue of why the Rams didn't draft Troy Polamalu, I'd actually have to slip into a coma.

    If you feel the need to dwell on it further, knock yourself out.

    As for this comment:
    you seem prone to lecturing of the "let me tell you the truth cause god speaks to me" variety
    apparently, you have missed my point entirely. I readily acknowledge that I don't know who was behind the decision to draft Jimmy Kennedy. The difference between you and I (with respect to this issue) is twofold. (1) I don't claim to know, and (2) I don't really care who made the decision.

  14. #44
    z.nrd Guest

    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    That being said how do I the reader, know the truth from the spin, reporters bias ect?

    If two reporters report the same lie, does it becomes a fact?

    Bad data in is always bad data out period.
    As a rule, no sportsreporter covering a local team is going to flat tell a lie. The issue is never lies. It may be misconstrual or an inadvertant inaccuracy, but never a lie. Why not? One call from the team to the publisher or (in the case of tv/radio) employer and it gets straightened out. Even if THAT employer is crazy enough to not acknowledge it, and the team only has to contact someone else---national press, different tv station, etc.

    That happens, and the reporter in question is kind of professionally doomed.

    So the issue will never be lies. Reporters, like the rest of us, may have their flaws, but they are not going to willingly committ professional suicide. They have morgages. They may sensationalize (depending on the reporter) but they are not going to jeopardize their mortgages by being deliberately untruthful. They are stuck in a symbiotic relationship with the team and they have to respect that.

    What they are MORE likely to do, in fact, is sit on a story if the team doesn't want it out. Usually that's not about players or coaches---teams can't control that, with the national press on the hunt. But usually the stuff they don't want out is about management. That's what you have to worry about. Not lies. NOT reporting things.

    How do you sift through stuff? Read several people across time, and never judge anything on its own in the moment, but always be comparing it with other stuff from other writers and other stuff from before. But that's only to pick up on the small little things.

    Almost invariably there will be no Bad Data on the big things. Teams have the ability to phone up a source-hungry, scoop-hunting national guy like Mortenson (a Shaw favorite) or Clayton and say "they reported this wrong" and the national guy goes "contrary to local rumors, the Rams do not practice human sacrifice."

    The real problem with sorting things out with team management is that team management never wants you to know the dirty laundry (or whatever they consider dirty laundry to be).

    However, we can ask things like "how is the front office set up, how is it organized?" cause on that the info flows like water.

    We can't always find out things like "Zygmunt hates Haslett and it shows in his decisions." The whole front office would have an interest in keeping something like that quiet. Haslett would keep it quiet cause coaches don't get jobs if they are seen as anti-management; and Zygmunt because like all CEO types, he is an instinctive CYA artist.

    So there's some things we can know. Some we can't. All I do myself is ask questions about the stuff we CAN know.

  15. #45
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    Re: Reason #11,000,000 why Zygmunt needs to stick to crunching numbers.

    All I think about while reading your comments z.nrd is Russell Crowe's role in a Beautiful Mind....sitting in a room with "evidence" pinned up all over the walls, talking to people that don't exist, and coming up with conclusions that "we" all agree on.

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