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  1. #1
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Smile Reggie Bush vs. Steven Jackson

    Great input on the other thread regarding what college player would you take for the Rams if you could have any player. I would have probably went with Jimmy Williams myself but their was very good points for every ones picks. Some thought it would be nice to have Reggie Bush and possibly trade Jackson to a power running team. Those responses made me think of a few questions.

    Jackson seems like a power runner that is better suited for running inside. These type of backs often require big road grader type OL. Bush seems like the type of back that can get to the outside. These type of backs often need an OL that is good at pulling and blocking outside for the RB.

    1A. With Jackson would we have the type of offensive line next year to support his style?

    1B. If not what positions would we have to upgrade?

    2A. With Bush would we have the type of offensive line next year to support his style?

    2B. If not what positions would we have to upgrade?

    3. In general do you think we would need to spend more on the OL for Jackson, Bush, or the same?

    In general any thoughts on improving our running game beyond the OL sucks is appreciated. I have hopes for some of our young lineman but some are still unproven and may or may not fit the scheme.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-26-2005 at 11:34 AM.


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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    I cannot believe we are even having this question. jackson is far from our problem. jackson is a very good back now and has a ton of potential. if bush is so good do you think any team in the top 5 will even think about trading their pick away. bush is a special player and i don't see any team that has a chance to draft him trading their pick away. btw we don't even know what kind of offensive system we will have next year? the next regime may plan an offensive system around jackson. who knows?

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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    It all depends on one thing. If the Rams try to remain the high flying GSOT, then Jackson does not fit in this system. If we become the Battering Rams, then Jackson will be a great back. It all depends on which direction the Rams want to go.
    The Roman and The Prince. Playmakers until the end.


  4. #4
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampage39
    I cannot believe we are even having this question. jackson is far from our problem. jackson is a very good back now and has a ton of potential. if bush is so good do you think any team in the top 5 will even think about trading their pick away. bush is a special player and i don't see any team that has a chance to draft him trading their pick away. btw we don't even know what kind of offensive system we will have next year? the next regime may plan an offensive system around jackson. who knows?
    I know there is almost no way we get Bush. Even though the title is Bush vs. Jackson this thread is intended to open up discussion of what we need to do to improve our running game next year. The only reason I put the title as such is because they are a contrast in types of RBs but that don’t mean both can’t be effective. Bush’s style of play resembles Faulks in his prime he is more of an elusive back that can get outside instead of the inside power running game like Jackson. Which made me think are we currently setup for that style back as opposed to the power RB like Jackson. Are we setup more for an OL that can pull and block outside or are we setup for the straight-ahead power running game. I think scheme, OL, RB, offensive system, coaching, and anything else that people feel would help the running game should be discussed.

    This thread was intended to be able to talk about what improvements we could make to help us out in the running game. Please if you think we can improve our running game next year I would like to hear your thoughts.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -11-26-2005 at 11:35 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    ...who in the world is Reggie Busch?

    It sounds as if you're trying to weigh who fits our current personnel more, and then based on those answers, you'd try to determine which back we should be using. Only problem is, there are probably half a dozen teams who could conceivably move up to get Bush, so we'd have to spend a lot of resources to get up there and get him.

    Look, I'm not sure we have an effective enough line to run either style right now. McCollum and Timmerman are showing their age, and need to be replaced with some guys who can move the pile and create holes. Jackson is more effective running north-south, so we need some strong guys who aren't going to lose leverage at the point of attack. But it's clear that we also like using Jackson on tosses and sweeps, so our linemen also have to have at least enough speed to pull and block on the outside and on the second level.

    But the bottom line is Reggie Bush isn't Superman. He may be the closest thing to it in this draft class, but from the games I've watched of USC's, he requires holes and blocking, just like Jackson. No matter which direction we go, we need some changes up front, so we may as well make those changes with our current back in mind.
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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    I disagree wholeheartedly.

    Okay, EVERYONE would agree Marshall Faulk needs only a crack... yet he only AVG 3.9 and 4.0 yards per carry the previous two years..

    Running backs need BLOCKING and Jackson ain't getting it.

    Under this theory, Faulk would've been amongst the league leaders and Jackson would've never worked his way into the lineup.

    It all starts up front and the guys up front aren't getting the job done. Plain and simple.

    It seems like a compounded, convulted argument made to lay the blame at Jackson's feet.

    .

  7. #7
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
    I disagree wholeheartedly.

    Okay, EVERYONE would agree Marshall Faulk needs only a crack... yet he only AVG 3.9 and 4.0 yards per carry the previous two years..

    Running backs need BLOCKING and Jackson ain't getting it.

    Under this theory, Faulk would've been amongst the league leaders and Jackson would've never worked his way into the lineup.

    It all starts up front and the guys up front aren't getting the job done. Plain and simple.

    It seems like a compounded, convulted argument made to lay the blame at Jackson's feet.

    .
    This sounds like the same old argument that the OL sucks without discussing scheme, play calling or what we need to do along the OL to fix the problem. As far as your Marshal comment IMO our OL is better this year with Barron and Terrell then it was last year but that is getting off the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    It sounds as if you're trying to weigh who fits our current personnel more, and then based on those answers, you'd try to determine which back we should be using. Only problem is, there are probably half a dozen teams who could conceivably move up to get Bush, so we'd have to spend a lot of resources to get up there and get him.
    Its not about Bush or Jackson as our RB next year. Like I said I would prefer we get Jimmy Williams but I think the type of OL we have can help determine the success of the RB and I was wondering if we are more suited for a power running game or an outside running game. I think their is a .01% chance we get Bush next year and I am fine with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Look, I'm not sure we have an effective enough line to run either style right now. McCollum and Timmerman are showing their age, and need to be replaced with some guys who can move the pile and create holes.
    We have stated this over and over. Can you elaborate on what you believe we need to do at these positions? Upgrade through free agency (possibles?), we have the replacements from with in (who at which positions), Look to draft an OL (possibles? and what round?). Also you make no mention of the other Guard spot do you think we are set at that position. I will assume you think like I do about the two OT spots and that is that they are taken care of. However we will need a back up OT incase of injury to Pace or Barron. Do we count on someone from with in to man the RT spot if one of those two go down or do we look outside and who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Jackson is more effective running north-south, so we need some strong guys who aren't going to lose leverage at the point of attack. But it's clear that we also like using Jackson on tosses and sweeps, so our linemen also have to have at least enough speed to pull and block on the outside and on the second level.
    I like Barron a lot long arms and for an OT he has some speed (4.9) and athletic ability. He looks like he can get out and move well in the running game. The one question I have at this stage in his career is can he be a bull dozing type OT I know he can contain on the pass rush with this long arms but I am not sure he gets a good push in the running game. He is young at this point and I think he will get better but I am sure it will take some more work in the weight room.

  8. #8
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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    Its not about Bush or Jackson as our RB next year.
    I think it is, or else you wouldn't have even included him in this discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN
    We have stated this over and over. Can you elaborate on what you believe we need to do at these positions? Upgrade through free agency (possibles?), we have the replacements from with in (who at which positions), Look to draft an OL (possibles? and what round?). Also you make no mention of the other Guard spot do you think we are set at that position. I will assume you think like I do about the two OT spots and that is that they are taken care of. However we will need a back up OT incase of injury to Pace or Barron. Do we count on someone from with in to man the RT spot if one of those two go down or do we look outside and who?
    If Hutchinson escapes Seattle to test the free agent market, he'd be high on my list in terms of players to go after, because he's one of the best guards in the league and obviously is effective at opening holes for Alexander. If you want a list of other free agents I'd be interested in taking a look at, I narrowed down a list of 2006 free agents in this thread with the ones I liked.

    As for the draft, it depends on how it plays out. If the Rams make defense a priority, then we'll probably have to use free agency to pick up any O-line additions. I think the Rams are banking on finding a starter at C and G between Incognito, Terrell, and Saipaia, and want two of the three to step up and compete for starting jobs in 2006, but if they felt guard was a day one priority, they could probably get one of the better ones at the top of round two. Barring a significant rise or fall in the current rankings, guys like Davin Joseph or Charles Spencer could be available when we pick.

    There are also some talented centers that could be had anywhere between rounds 2-4. I personally think we should resign McCollum to a 2-3 year low-cost contract should Incogito not progress like we'd want.

    More depth at tackle would be great to have, but like any offensive lineman coming in, it's going to take a bit of time getting into this system, should we keep the same system even after Martz leaves.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    I agree totally Jackson has done a great job for the rams and if the rams had lineman who could block for him it would be a different story. Besides we should be more worried about our defense! And screw Reggie Busch if the rams should get any backs it should be Maurice Drew from UCLA!
    Last edited by socalramfan; -11-26-2005 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #10
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by socalramfan
    I agree totally Jackson has done a great job for the rams and if the rams had lineman who could block for him it would be a different story. Besides we should be more worried about our defense! And screw Reggie Busch if the rams should get any backs it should be Maurice Drew from UCLA!
    Wow great insight in what we need to do to improve our running game next year. I could really give a **** if Bush is with us or not. Thanks for taking the typical easy way out and saying our OL cant block. That really is useful in diagnosing where the problems lie and how to fix them.

  11. #11
    NY RAMFAN's Avatar
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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    What the deuce!?!?!?!? we are talking RB when we should be talking OL, LB, CB and ST, c'mon guys you watched the same games I've watched and I'm pretty sure that if we weren't strugling from behind like most of our games SJ and HOF MF would have had planty 100 yard games.

    Long live the rams and GSOT creator

  12. #12
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    Quote Originally Posted by NY RAMFAN
    What the deuce!?!?!?!? we are talking RB when we should be talking OL, LB, CB and ST, c'mon guys you watched the same games I've watched and I'm pretty sure that if we weren't strugling from behind like most of our games SJ and HOF MF would have had planty 100 yard games.

    Long live the rams and GSOT creator
    Read my posts through out this thread Nick is the only one that tried answering what would help our running game next year. Its not about just RBs its about improving the running game. This thread was intended for to provide insight I will repeat OL, scheme, personnel, and anything to improve. If you are one that says the OL sucks what positions do we need to upgrade (how do you see us going about upgrading) and what do we stand pat with on the OL. I think its a given that most people here would think our two OT's are legit.

    Please don’t tell me that no one here thinks there is a problem in our running game whether it’s OL, scheme, players on the OL, FB, RB, or something. We get to many runs of less then 1 yard to say there is not something wrong. The question is what is it and how do we fix it.

    Nick and AV I believe brought up a point before about being predictable when we run. This can be part of the problem but there are a lot of teams that no when a team is going to run and still can’t stop them so I think although this may be a part of it I believe it goes deeper then that.

  13. #13
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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    It's simply NOT TRUE that one back works with one line and another back works with a different line.

    When you have a running play - you want to run it up in there hard.

    Think Dallas's Offense of yesterday.

    Troy Aikman,, Great Passing Offense.
    Receivers - Irvin, Alvin Harper, Novachek

    Did they have a physical inside running game that coexisted with their Passing game? YES

    Their OL had monsters (of their time) in Nate Newton and Erik Williams.. They had a POWER RUNNING GAME with Moose Johnson utiliized as the lead blocker.

    It's a Falsehood, a Red Herring, whatever you want to call it that Running back A needs OL type A1 and Running back B needs OL type B2...
    Football is not like that ... That's the facts.

    Look no further than the '75 Cardinals. Two rushers on the same team - Scat-back Terry Metcalf and inside runner JIM OTIS both had great years. That OL was physical by any standard (remember Conrad Dobler) and they They had a great passing Offense too (Don Coryell)

    The argument is based on a false premise.

    /

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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    Please donít tell me that no one here thinks there is a problem in our running game whether itís OL, scheme, players on the OL, FB, RB, or something. We get to many runs of less then 1 yard to say there is not something wrong. The question is what is it and how do we fix it.


    Well, I sadly believe that our problem lies even beyond a RB, an OL, or even a DC.

    Once the guys in the front office decides to stop ***ing around and start to pull all together in the same direction our treads will be far way more different from the ones we're having these days.

    Regarding our current running game, it is true is no news that it is inexistent (12 for 6 agains the cardinanls, i believe) but is also true that you can't establish a power running game playing from behind every game.

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    Re: Reggie Busch vs. Steven Jackson

    The Offensive Lineman said there was a safety playing up in the line in addition to the linebackers and that we should have made adjustments. That's an Offensive lineman saying we should have made adjustments.

    Steven Jackson said after the game that it was obvious that the Cardinals knew what we were going to do...

    The hardest part of coaching is making adjustments during the game and during the season.

    .

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