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Thread: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by demiurge View Post
    Roethlisberger and Manning had great, overwhelming defenses during their runs. The Patriots defense is always good, but when it wasn't great, the Patriots didn't win the SB - even when their pass offense was great.

    The Saints D was only average - but was great at turnovers, 2nd highest in the league during the regular season.

    The Colts D in 2006 was the only one you could say was 'bad', because they were dead last against the run in the league that year. However, they were 2nd against the pass, and they went on their playoff run right when the S Bob Sanders came back from injury and really stiffened up their run defense. They played good D against Priest Holmes, Jamal Lewis and Corey Dillon in the playoffs. Thomas Jones gouged them, but with Rex Grossman at the helm that game really wasn't in doubt.

    Good teams win championships, but I'd say that having a strong overall D is more of a hallmark of a great team than a great passing game over the last 20 years. Plenty of great passing attacks failed, and there's been lots of cases of great passing attacks vs great Ds where the D won. You mention Aaron Rodgers, and rightly so, but remember his team the next year at 15-1 was bounced out of the playoffs in its first game by the Giants and their amazing pass rush.



    The '99 Rams had a top 5 defense - 4th in points allowed, 6th in yardage, 4th in turnovers, and 1st in rushing defense. More importantly, on a team where everyone had to pass and they teed off constantly to get to the QB, they were 1st in rushing yards allowed - 3.5 yards per carry. That defense does not get the credit it deserves. D'Marco Farr was a monster that year - when he blew out his knee the heart of that defense was gone, and the next year they were epically bad - and despite having a phenomonal offense didn't make the playoffs.
    I disagree Manning and Roethlisberger had "great" defenses furing their runs. Assuming you're referring to "Peyton" when mentioning Manning, The Colts "D" was OK but nowhere near great. Steelers were better, but again- not great.. If you're referring to Eli, the Giants "D" was terrible for much of the year, only playing well in the playoffs. The old adage that "defense wins championships" is not nearly as accurate as it once was when the "Doomsday Defense" and the "Steel Curtain" and the "Purple People Eaters" and the "Fearsome Foursome" ruled the NFL.

    You need a good defense- no doubt. But we shouldn't concentrate the bulk of our draft efforts on that side of the football when our offense- specifically the passing offense- needs the more significant upgrades.


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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    While I do agree the NFL is a passing league I find the following interesting:

    Denver Broncos after losing the Superbowl

    Sign:
    Demarcus Ware (defense)
    T J Ward (defense)
    Aqib Talib (defense)

    I know they had other signings both offense and defense but these were the BIG name signings, if you will? This is nothing new as it seems all teams try to copy the winning Superbowl teams plan.
    The Seahawks won with Defense and the Bronco's as well as the rest of league know they need to catch up.
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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    While I do agree the NFL is a passing league I find the following interesting:

    Denver Broncos after losing the Superbowl

    Sign:
    Demarcus Ware (defense)
    T J Ward (defense)
    Aqib Talib (defense)

    I know they had other signings both offense and defense but these were the BIG name signings, if you will? This is nothing new as it seems all teams try to copy the winning Superbowl teams plan.
    The Seahawks won with Defense and the Bronco's as well as the rest of league know they need to catch up.

    Definitely relevant, laram0. I just think its a mistake for people to use the Seahawks blueprint and automatically assume it will be successful for them. It's a copycat league. Not every team can have that type of success. You need personnel. easier said than done. It's also notable that though the Seahawks offense was not a juggernaut by any means, they were still good. I would not categorize the current Rams offense as being 'good" and as such, should be prioritized ahead of the defense, which is in much better shape.

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    demiurge is offline Registered User
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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1 View Post
    Definitely relevant, laram0. I just think its a mistake for people to use the Seahawks blueprint and automatically assume it will be successful for them. It's a copycat league. Not every team can have that type of success. You need personnel. easier said than done. It's also notable that though the Seahawks offense was not a juggernaut by any means, they were still good. I would not categorize the current Rams offense as being 'good" and as such, should be prioritized ahead of the defense, which is in much better shape.
    That certainly seems a reasonable POV, and I have no objections when phrased like that.

    I think the disconnect is the earlier comments that you have to have a great passing game - while that's certainly a common refrain among the NFL intelligentsia there's plenty of arguments against it as well. Most great teams do have great passing games - but almost all great teams have great defenses.

    Perhaps its the scope of the argument that's the problem - because you are focusing on one aspect of the offense, as opposed to the entirety of the defense.

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1 View Post
    I disagree Manning and Roethlisberger had "great" defenses furing their runs.
    The Steelers from 2004 to 2011 when they were a perennial playoff team and went to 3 Super Bowls:

    Year Overall D rank Points allowed rank
    2011 1st 1st
    2010 2nd 1st
    2009 5th 12th
    2008 1st 1st
    2007 1st 2nd
    2006 9th 11th
    2005 4th 3rd
    2004 1st 1st

    Yeah, that's a great defense. They led the league in either yards or points 5 times in 8 years. That's one of the best D's of all time over an extended period.

    Assuming you're referring to "Peyton" when mentioning Manning, The Colts "D" was OK but nowhere near great. Steelers were better, but again- not great.. If you're referring to Eli, the Giants "D" was terrible for much of the year, only playing well in the playoffs.
    I meant Eli, not Peyton, sorry for the confusion. I certainly agree that the Giants didn't have dominant defenses during their 2 Super Bowl regular seasons, but when it came to the playoffs, they absolutely annihilated guys. I've never seen a better pass rush. They took out two of the best passing teams of all time in the Patriots in 2007 and the Packers in 2011. Without that defense jumping several notches during their playoff runs, they don't win those two super bowls.

    The Colts D was pretty average during most of Peyton's tour - good pass rush, good coverage, weak against the run. But then, that's why one of the greatest QBs of all time had a hard time in the playoffs and during that stint lost a lot of playoff games to a team that had less weapons in the receiving corps but a far better defense in the Patriots.


    The old adage that "defense wins championships" is not nearly as accurate as it once was when the "Doomsday Defense" and the "Steel Curtain" and the "Purple People Eaters" and the "Fearsome Foursome" ruled the NFL.
    That I agree with. The nature of the game certainly has changed. They changed the rules because those defenses were so dominating.

    But we've seen teams win with far better defenses than offenses since. Seattle in 2013, the Ravens in 2000, the Giants in 1990, 2007, and 2011 (though not in 2000, they ran into a better defense), the Bucs in 2002, unfortunately the Pats in 2001. You can win with a great defense and a OK to good offense.

    There isn't one formula.

    You need a good defense- no doubt. But we shouldn't concentrate the bulk of our draft efforts on that side of the football when our offense- specifically the passing offense- needs the more significant upgrades.
    Again, that's a reasonable POV. Personally I think we need a bit on the O line and we've got the talent to win with our current stable of WRs, TEs and backs - but that's certainly not a sure thing. Its a belief in my mind that these guys will get better - in some cases, a lot better.

    But if we go with Watkins and Lewan, I'd be fine with that too.

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    It'll always be a Chess match, pitting your Chess pieces against theirs. You try to exploit what they don't do well and threw a monkey wrench in what the do well--Football Game Planning 101.

    Now if Fisher is run first, pass second, he'll will never get the Rams to the Super Bowl unless he somehow creates one of those all time great defenses. Point is, the Rams need to be able to do both and come into a game and apply Football 101. Right now I don't see a serious ability to "pass" the ball that is credible.

    Others pointed out, correctly, that the NFL is a passing league, and if the Rams have to come from behind, they have to have a viable passing game. With the NFC West so tough, almost every game is a playoff game where a loss counts heavily; you need look no further then the NFC North where a handful of losses are not so damaging for those teams to make the playoffs. Its as I always say, hope for the best but plan for the worst. Therefore I count on the 49Whinners/Squawks winning 11 games...the Rams can go 6-10 with all wins coming against the division, but that will not get them into the playoffs.

    So when its argued that the Rams need a balanced game on offense, its for a good reason. I sincerely hope Fisher isn't overlooking the passing game

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by demiurge View Post
    The Steelers from 2004 to 2011 when they were a perennial playoff team and went to 3 Super Bowls:

    Year Overall D rank Points allowed rank
    2011 1st 1st
    2010 2nd 1st
    2009 5th 12th
    2008 1st 1st
    2007 1st 2nd
    2006 9th 11th
    2005 4th 3rd
    2004 1st 1st

    Yeah, that's a great defense. They led the league in either yards or points 5 times in 8 years. That's one of the best D's of all time over an extended period.



    I meant Eli, not Peyton, sorry for the confusion. I certainly agree that the Giants didn't have dominant defenses during their 2 Super Bowl regular seasons, but when it came to the playoffs, they absolutely annihilated guys. I've never seen a better pass rush. They took out two of the best passing teams of all time in the Patriots in 2007 and the Packers in 2011. Without that defense jumping several notches during their playoff runs, they don't win those two super bowls.

    The Colts D was pretty average during most of Peyton's tour - good pass rush, good coverage, weak against the run. But then, that's why one of the greatest QBs of all time had a hard time in the playoffs and during that stint lost a lot of playoff games to a team that had less weapons in the receiving corps but a far better defense in the Patriots.




    That I agree with. The nature of the game certainly has changed. They changed the rules because those defenses were so dominating.

    But we've seen teams win with far better defenses than offenses since. Seattle in 2013, the Ravens in 2000, the Giants in 1990, 2007, and 2011 (though not in 2000, they ran into a better defense), the Bucs in 2002, unfortunately the Pats in 2001. You can win with a great defense and a OK to good offense.

    There isn't one formula.



    Again, that's a reasonable POV. Personally I think we need a bit on the O line and we've got the talent to win with our current stable of WRs, TEs and backs - but that's certainly not a sure thing. Its a belief in my mind that these guys will get better - in some cases, a lot better.

    But if we go with Watkins and Lewan, I'd be fine with that too.

    I respect your viewpoint. The ironic thing is I LOVE defense. Played it in high school and grew up looking forward to watching guys like Jack Youngblood & Nolan Cromwell ply their trade. I just feel that in today's day and age, you need a good offense. And we haven't done a good enough job of collecting pieces. It certainly can't be at the expense of the defense, but you need to be able to put points on the board. And I've just HATED watching elements of our offense in recent years. Our stable of receivers perfectly illustrate this. And eventually, we have to get beyond the "They're young and will develop" mentality. Show me, don't tell me.

    I think it's all but certain we'll be taking an O-lineman with one of our first two picks- that is, provided we don't trade down. The bigger question is what do we do with the other pick? Do we take a safety? Receiver? I really don't know, but I think people know what my thoughts are on getting the big game-breaking WR.

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    In high school, I played left DT and was on two back-to-back state championship teams...the first was won due to excellent passing and strong DEFENSE...the second was because we got a RB that broke state rushing records and a killer defense. The funny thing is with the ground game, our passing game looked like pretty good on paper. Yet throughout that year, we won games with the trifecta...won going through the air, on the ground and because of defensive scores. That's high school football--a different world altogether then from the college or pro level.

    But the principle is the same--you do what you have to, to win. Unless a NFL team is a disaster, or better yet your division is a wreck, most teams have elements of their defense that are at least good. The Rams offense has to be flexible enough on multiple levels using multiple play concepts to over come their opponents because truth be told the athletic talent is too deep. Its the primary reason why having a top 15 or better QB is so sought after and why there are so few "elite" QBs in the game.

    For the Rams, they have to over come 3 good to elite defenses. Bradford's numbers for a QB are solid...the defense is solid...{maybe} the Rams ground game is respectable going into 2014...but certainly the weak link has been the passing game. In the glory days Holt/Bruce made possible Jackson/Faulk success and vice versa. Where Martz failed as a HC, was his defense and degenerating OL, the latter being as a HC the most difficult to construct, plus some really terrible personal decisions
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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Seahawks offense.....26 points per game

    Rams offense.....21 points per game (with Bradford missing more than half the season)

    Seahawks defense......allowed 14 points per game.

    Rams defense....allowed 22 points per game.

    Based on the averages per game from above, it would appear that in spite of NJ's assertion, the Rams are farther behind the Seahawks defense than they are the Seahawk offense, even though the Ram defense is perceived to be a stronger unit than the offense.

    Furthermore, Sam Bradford's return will undoubtedly be an upgrade over Kellen Clemens. And I think we can reasonably expect that such upgrade, will undoubtedly produce more points per game. Beyond that, I think we can all agree that Sam likely played his best football as a Ram just prior to his injury.

    So when I add it all up, I'm left with the conclusion that contrary to popular belief, it is the defense that needs immediate attention.

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    no way..id be [issed if they signed him..too much money and hes not that good anymore, and im happy with stacy as "the guy" who carries 20x a game

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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortuninerhater View Post
    Seahawks offense.....26 points per game

    Rams offense.....21 points per game (with Bradford missing more than half the season)

    Seahawks defense......allowed 14 points per game.



    Rams defense....allowed 22 points per game.

    Based on the averages per game from above, it would appear that in spite of NJ's assertion, the Rams are farther behind the Seahawks defense than they are the Seahawk offense, even though the Ram defense is perceived to be a stronger unit than the offense.

    Furthermore, Sam Bradford's return will undoubtedly be an upgrade over Kellen Clemens. And I think we can reasonably expect that such upgrade, will undoubtedly produce more points per game. Beyond that, I think we can all agree that Sam likely played his best football as a Ram just prior to his injury.

    So when I add it all up, I'm left with the conclusion that contrary to popular belief, it is the defense that needs immediate attention.

    I don't agree at all. Nine times in 2013 we scored 19 or fewer points. Six times- including 3 times with Bradford- we scored 11 or less points. If that isn't an argument for prioritizing the offense, I don't know what is.

    I understand we must always be mindful of our divisional opponents, but let's stop comparing ourselves to Seattle. Just because Seattle won a SB doesn't mean we should make our decisions based on what they do or don't do. But since you brought it up, I am much more concerned about our ability to move the football on their defense than I am worried about us being able to stop their offense. Yet another reason for us to get us a playmaker or two.
    Last edited by NJ Ramsfan1; -04-07-2014 at 08:14 AM.
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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    I think a big difference of opinion right now is really how good our passing game can be.

    Bradford was on his way to his best season statistically by far when he got hurt, and that was with a team that was atrocious at running the football in the first quarter of the season. We had to pass because we couldn't run - and Bradford was doing well at it. If he had the 2011 defense, they would have definitely had a winning record. Unfortunately, the combination of no running game and porous secondary meant we had a losing record when he got hurt.

    The thing I keep looking at is how incredibly young the Rams are. The only established vets they had were on the offensive line, really, and those guys were often injured.

    Going in to last season, the WR corps experience was 3 years, 1 year, 1 year, rookie, rookie. The RB was either a 1st year or a rookie. That is a team that is going to have a LOT to learn.

    Going into this year, if our Oline is stable, we've got a proven RB, we've got a bit of depth (I think both Richardson and Cunningham can get the job done when healthy), and we've got young talent that appears ready to make big strides in the WR corps. I think Bailey and Austin are the real deal, and I think Quick can contribute (and is amazing blocking) and Givens can be a legitimate deep threat. Cook, Kendricks and Harkey are the best set of TEs the Rams have had in a long time IMO.

    I don't think we challenge for the division this year. We need one or two more significant pieces, and we need time for the team to grow up. But those pieces could be brought in this year with a very favorable position in a very deep draft.

    I'd prefer we get our oline situation settled. A very good oline makes up for a multitude of sins at the skill positions.
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    Re: Rumors, speculations--all things Titan's--FA--the future

    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1 View Post
    I don't agree at all. Nine times in 2013 we scored 19 or fewer points. Six times- including 3 times with Bradford- we scored 11 or less points. If that isn't an argument for prioritizing the offense, I don't know what is.

    I understand we must always be mindful of our divisional opponents, but let's stop comparing ourselves to Seattle. Just because Seattle won a SB doesn't mean we should make our decisions based on what they do or don't do. But since you brought it up, I am much more concerned about our ability to move the football on their defense than I am worried about us being able to stop their offense. Yet another reason for us to get us a playmaker or two.
    Agreed 100%. Thinking that 21 PPG is going to get it done in the NFL just isn't realistic. I don't think 21 PPG can get us to .500, let alone the playoffs. Nobody knows whether we would have scored more if Sam didn't get hurt, so people can't just assume we would have.

    Our defense is coming along nicely, but people can't expect them to hold our opponents to less than 21 points every week so we can squeak by and get wins. We need more balance, and our offense is clearly behind our defense, as it has been the last few years. We've tried to build around Givens, Quick, and Pettis, and it hasn't worked out very well for us so far. Tavon is a nice piece who I have confidence in along with Zac, but they need some help to take the pressure off of the offense so they can start moving the ball, and score more than 21 PPG.
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