Sam Bradford: The Truth

[JPPT1974]

You can't just blame Bradford. But yes he had years to developed, about three of them. As really he does not have a good cast of weapons sans for Steven Jackson. Hopefully with Jeff Fisher's help he will begin to develop more.

[bradwill]

^ of course he's not playing like Brees or Manning right now he's 25 years old and surrounded by mediocre weapons. Eli, Brady and Brees didn't play anything like they do now at age 25. Why does everyone constantly gloss over this fact?

It's almost like people on this board have just started watching football and are completely oblivious to the fact that young players often struggle early and improve dramatically.

Because he eats up a ton of cap space with his contract and guys like Newton, Wilson and RG3 come into the league and look like the better QB's? Maybe that's it?

Bradford isn't playing up to his enormous contract and that hopefully will change. The NFL has a hard salary cap and Bradford's ROI right now is upside down. Will he reverse that? Entirely possible.

[mcpeepants232003]

Because he eats up a ton of cap space with his contract and guys like Newton, Wilson and RG3 come into the league and look like the better QB's? Maybe that's it?

Bradford isn't playing up to his enormous contract and that hopefully will change. The NFL has a hard salary cap and Bradford's ROI right now is upside down. Will he reverse that? Entirely possible.

None of this is his fault. So if he had come in to the league a year later somehow it would be ok he's a decent mid level QB at age 25(which if you check the stats he is).

The only thing that matters is his play and he is clearly getting better. No one, I mean not even the staunchest Bradford supporter, says he has no flaws but he is improving, he has put up decent numbers and he's played very well down the stretchEspecially ones with such an average supporting cast.

Does his salary suck? Well yes but at least if he keeps improving we don't have to worry about it escalating too much.

I'm just sick of seeing the same old threads literally every time we lose. Seriously our defense was awful today and yet there isn't even one thread about that. Not one thread about how Stephen Jackson isn't even one of the top 15-20 RB's in the league right now(also with a big cap number). Shoot people are dying to give SJax another contract.

I wouldn't even have a problem with the excessive criticism if there weren't so many people who have no idea what they are talking about. It's just hard to deal with people saying he's a bust, that his ceiling is that of an average back up(yes he's ceiling is Joe Webb), or on and on. He deserves some criticism for sure but some of the claims levied at him are the epitome of ignorance and stupidity.

[NJ Ramsfan1]

None of this is his fault. So if he had come in to the league a year later somehow it would be ok he's a decent mid level QB at age 25(which if you check the stats he is).

The only thing that matters is his play and he is clearly getting better. No one, I mean not even the staunchest Bradford supporter, says he has no flaws but he is improving, he has put up decent numbers and he's played very well down the stretchEspecially ones with such an average supporting cast.

Does his salary suck? Well yes but at least if he keeps improving we don't have to worry about it escalating too much.

I'm just sick of seeing the same old threads literally every time we lose. Seriously our defense was awful today and yet there isn't even one thread about that. Not one thread about how Stephen Jackson isn't even one of the top 15-20 RB's in the league right now(also with a big cap number). Shoot people are dying to give SJax another contract.

I wouldn't even have a problem with the excessive criticism if there weren't so many people who have no idea what they are talking about. It's just hard to deal with people saying he's a bust, that his ceiling is that of an average back up(yes he's ceiling is Joe Webb), or on and on. He deserves some criticism for sure but some of the claims levied at him are the epitome of ignorance and stupidity.

The QB will always take the hit when the team plays poorly. It is an irrational thought process, but it comes with the territory of playing the most glamorous position in sports. And when a guy's salary is off-the-charts, people expect super human performance to justify it. Not exactly realistic, but once again that's reality. Ask any Yankee fan why they hate Alex Rodriguez and invariably it all comes back to him being paid a huge sum of money for average production.

No doubt the defense was poor today, but they've played very well in recent weeks, thus the lack of posts decrying their poor play today. And our defense is hardly the only one Peterson has gashed this season.

[Goldenfleece]

^ of course he's not playing like Brees or Manning right now he's 25 years old and surrounded by mediocre weapons. Eli, Brady and Brees didn't play anything like they do now at age 25. Why does everyone constantly gloss over this fact?

It's almost like people on this board have just started watching football and are completely oblivious to the fact that young players often struggle early and improve dramatically.

Alright, devil's advocate here:

Eli - When I talk about Manning as the gold standard, I'm still usually talking about Peyton, who threw for 4400 yards in his third season while putting up a very respectable 94.7 QBR. Eli is one of the better quarterbacks in the league, but he has also had a strong supporting cast.

Tom Brady - Admittedly, his stats were not particularly elite early in his career, but he was throwing to the likes of Deion Branch, David Patten and Troy Brown in the receiver corps with Antowain Smith and Kevin Faulk as their best runningbacks. Circa 2002, the prevailing storyline was that the Patriots were the team with no stars. Even then, they ended the season on a three game winning streak with scores of 41, 40, and 30. He may not have been the best quarterback in the world, but he led a very efficient offense.

Drew Brees - He's probably the best comparison for an optimistic take on Bradford. He was pretty good with the Chargers but didn't have very good receivers. The Chargers thought they could do better with Rivers, and they made a big mistake by letting Brees go.

Mike Vick - Honestly, Vick was never a very accurate quarterback until after he got out of prison. If you want a laugh, look up what percentage of his total yardage came from throwing to the tight end Alge Crumpler because he was the only guy Mike would checkdown to before taking off running. Vick's game has always relied first and foremost on his ability to force the defense to respect him as a scrambling threat.

Young players do tend to get better over time, but it isn't real common for a player to get dramatically better in his late 20s. I'm not suggesting by any means that we should give up on Bradford, but I also think that the most likely scenario is that he does not ascend to All-Pro level over the next couple years.

[mcpeepants232003]

The QB will always take the hit when the team plays poorly. It is an irrational thought process, but it comes with the territory of playing the most glamorous position in sports. And when a guy's salary is off-the-charts, people expect super human performance to justify it. Not exactly realistic, but once again that's reality. Ask any Yankee fan why they hate Alex Rodriguez and invariably it all comes back to him being paid a huge sum of money for average production.

No doubt the defense was poor today, but they've played very well in recent weeks, thus the lack of posts decrying their poor play today. And our defense is hardly the only one Peterson has gashed this season.

I agree our defense has played well and Peterson is just about unstoppable at this point.

I also understand his pay will lead to more criticism. I just don't understand why people constantly act like Brees, Brady, Rogers, Eli and on were instantly elite level QB's or elite level by years 2 or 3.

I also don't understand why people are acting like he's having an awful year when he's a couple of rating points from being a top 13 or 14 QB(which could easily come next week against the Buc's terrible pass defense). It would be one thing if he had continually let his down in the clutch but if anything he's been far better in the 4th quarter(top 3 in the league in 4th quarter rating).

Bradford is by no means an elite QB but he's also by no means a finished product and Josh Freeman has showed us this year how much a truly elite RB, offensive line and receiving corps can mean to a QB. If we are able to shore up our line and receiving corps next year and Bradford does not take the next step forward I'll be worried. Until then I'm just not the type of person to come to snap decisions. I understand it takes time and players around a QB to make him great. Some people just don't.

[mcpeepants232003]

Alright, devil's advocate here:

Eli - When I talk about Manning as the gold standard, I'm still usually talking about Peyton, who threw for 4400 yards in his third season while putting up a very respectable 94.7 QBR. Eli is one of the better quarterbacks in the league, but he has also had a strong supporting cast.

Tom Brady - Admittedly, his stats were not particularly elite early in his career, but he was throwing to the likes of Deion Branch, David Patten and Troy Brown in the receiver corps with Antowain Smith and Kevin Faulk as their best runningbacks. Circa 2002, the prevailing storyline was that the Patriots were the team with no stars. Even then, they ended the season on a three game winning streak with scores of 41, 40, and 30. He may not have been the best quarterback in the world, but he led a very efficient offense.

Drew Brees - He's probably the best comparison for an optimistic take on Bradford. He was pretty good with the Chargers but didn't have very good receivers. The Chargers thought they could do better with Rivers, and they made a big mistake by letting Brees go.

Mike Vick - Honestly, Vick was never a very accurate quarterback until after he got out of prison. If you want a laugh, look up what percentage of his total yardage came from throwing to the tight end Alge Crumpler because he was the only guy Mike would checkdown to before taking off running. Vick's game has always relied first and foremost on his ability to force the defense to respect him as a scrambling threat.

Young players do tend to get better over time, but it isn't real common for a player to get dramatically better in his late 20s. I'm not suggesting by any means that we should give up on Bradford, but I also think that the most likely scenario is that he does not ascend to All-Pro level over the next couple years.

A. Smith average almost 1100 yards Brady's first two years and Troy Brown put up 900-1200 yards for 3 straight years. So even though Brady's playmakers looked mediocre they were actually better than the Rams were and obviously behind a far better line(those Pat's lines were among the best in the last decade).

Brees was honestly terrible his first three years as a Chargers QB and didn't break out until year four. He also didn't have great receivers but he had LT and Antonio Gates.

Eli follows a similar path. I understand people questioning whether Bradford will ever make that step but when you go back,see so many great QB's struggling early in their career and not putting it together until they had better weapons you start to see a pattern.

Many, many QB's hit their stride years 4 and 5 and at age 25-27. There is a definite pattern here. Even guys like Peyton had plenty of early career troubles. 3 of Peytons first 5 years he had a rating under 88(by comparison people are calling Bradford awful at 83-84). Peyton had 42 interceptions in years 4 and 5 and only 53 td's.

I understand wanting to lash out and blame someone but we just don't have enough evidence to say Bradford can or can't be elite. That's why I really would like us to sign a FA WR this year and not draft one. To truly grade Bradford we need to see him with a solid supporting cast and a rookie WR could take years to develop. Sign Wallace or Bowe pair them with Givens, Gibson and Amendola, draft a couple linemen and then we can truly see what we have.

[Goldenfleece]

Well, I don't want to quibble, but I wouldn't say Brees was terrible his first few years. He only got the chance to play in one game his rookie year but put up a 94.8 QB rating. He had a 76.9 QBR and was ranked 12th in the league in passing yardage in his first season starting, which isn't great but it's not bad for a first year starter. Brees took a step back in an injury-hampered season in 2003, but in his third year as a starter (but fourth year as a pro), Brees had a 104.5 QB rating (3rd in the league), threw 27 TDs (tied 7th in the league), and threw for 3,159 yards (15th in the league).

I would agree with you, though, that Sam simply does not have the support he needs at this point. Steven Jackson is on pace to barely break 1000 yards rushing, which is a pretty significant drop-off from his best years. He's getting better play from his receivers than the last two years, but they still don't get a lot of separation except when Givens occasionally gets over the top. The line is problematic. Kendricks is no Antonio Gates. Whether Bradford is merely a good quarterback or a Hall of Famer in development, I think the strategy still has to be the same. We're not going to transform from a 28th ranked scoring offense into an elite unit based solely on Bradford's progression as a player. We need to get him better protection. We need more--or at least more threatening--offensive weapons.

[mcpeepants232003]

^ I agree with all your points. Brees wasn't terrible but he played even worse than Bradford has his first couple of years.

I just don't understand the he's a bust, he's a backup, he's a bad QB, we need to replace him talk. The numbers don't show this and that's while surrounded by mediocre talent. Like I said earlier a strong game next week against the terrible Bucs defense and he could be top 12-15 in most passing stats. He's 2-3 points away from being top 14 in rating, a couple td's back of top 15, and like 100-150 yards back of top 15 in yards.

With all the holes we have I don't see any reason to suggest we take a QB in round 1 in 2014(like that other thread suggested). Obviously he has to continue making strides but he's made a lot this year with just a slight improvement in offensive talent. If he we do gain more talent on the line and at wr and he makes similar improvements he'll probably be a top 12 QB next year.

[Fastcat]

I never have been a big Bradford fan but I know football, and when everyone sits back a realize these few points, they will be no more Bradford bashing post.

1. Sam will ONLY be as good as the team around him. He IS NOT the type of QB to make everyone better week in and week out. It is unfair to compare him to people like Manning or Brady or Brees at this point. He is morre in the realm of Shuab and Flacco. Remember Mark Bulger? Remember how good he was before the talent here started to dwindle? Well Sam is in the same situation but the talent is getting better instead of worst!

2. With a stellar line and good recievers Sam WILL excel!! He is accurate, doesnt make many mistakes, and doesnt really turn the ball over. The guy is who he is. Many want him to be manning/brady/brees esque but it WONT happen. He is the type of Qb that needs a supporting cast (like Bulger before he got battered).

Brady, manning, brees, and rogers could walk into Rams park right now and we would be a 10+ win team. Flacco and Shaub could walk in and we would probably be the same team as we are now. Bradford isnt elite and more than likely will never be. But he will be a good winning qb in this league, unless we never address the line issues and he gets battered.... We is already showing the "happy feet sign"... But he will be ok

[RealRam]

He's having his best year as a pro and I think he will only get better as the Rams load up on talent next year.

I'm holding out judgment on the guy until next year. Just my opinion.

Totally agree. At present we seem to have too many peripherals to connect to SBs lack of "eliteness" ... WRs, OL, new HC / OC, etc.

Thusly, next season much of these branch issues will have been pruned so Sam will have to be the man.

[TorontoRam]

This thread is becoming a 'tad' lengthy, so I apologize for adding an inch or two. My issue with Bradford, putting aside for a moment the several OCs he's had; the inconsistent play of his teammates etc., is that I've tried to isolate him when I watch games at the ED and on TV and he seems to lack some skills that make quarterbacks great (not just serviceable) IMO:
Pocket awareness (who's about to clean his clock and from where)
Field awareness (where's my #1, #2, and #3 reads in time to actually hit one of them)
Pocket movement ('buying time' by moving around in the pocket)
In terms of things like accuracy, arm strength, ability to run etc. I'm not overly impressed with those things either especially comparing him to some of his peers, like RGIII, Luck, Freeman, and Kapernick, avoiding comparing him to Brees, Brady, etc. who are in a different stratosphere in terms of skills IMO.

[MACD]

This thread is becoming a 'tad' lengthy, so I apologize for adding an inch or two. My issue with Bradford, putting aside for a moment the several OCs he's had; the inconsistent play of his teammates etc., is that I've tried to isolate him when I watch games at the ED and on TV and he seems to lack some skills that make quarterbacks great (not just serviceable) IMO:
Pocket awareness (who's about to clean his clock and from where)
Field awareness (where's my #1, #2, and #3 reads in time to actually hit one of them)
Pocket movement ('buying time' by moving around in the pocket)
In terms of things like accuracy, arm strength, ability to run etc. I'm not overly impressed with those things either especially comparing him to some of his peers, like RGIII, Luck, Freeman, and Kapernick, avoiding comparing him to Brees, Brady, etc. who are in a different stratosphere in terms of skills IMO.

And the irony is that I've seen Sam make good progress in all the areas you mention this year!! FWIW, I read in my paper this morning that Wells said the snap slipped in his hand BEFORE it got to Bradford's hands. Please God, at least take this stupid indictment out of the discussion. Over 20 players from last year's roster aren't even in the NFL this year! It's still a major overhaul process. And yet we're undefeated in the West. And the ***** stomp the Patriots last night.

[AvengerRam]

FWIW, I read in my paper this morning that Wells said the snap slipped in his hand BEFORE it got to Bradford's hand. Please God, at least take this stupid indictment out of the discussion.

Unfortunately, some people here have an agenda and are unconcerned with those pesky facts.

[macrammer]

Unfortunately, some people here have an agenda and are unconcerned with those pesky facts.

My agenda is based around one fact....wn and loss. I look forward to the day whereby we are a true contender. From what i can see we are just a few KEY pieces away and QB is not one of them.