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Thread: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

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    Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez: Would A New OC Free The St. Louis Rams' QB?

    By Dan Moore - Managing Editor

    Brian Schottenheimer's ready to leave the New York Jets for the St. Louis Rams. Will he give Sam Bradford the same leeway they gave Mark Sanchez?


    Jan 16, 2012 - The St. Louis Rams reportedly settling on Brian Schottenheimer as their next offensive coordinator hasn't just been big news in the Midwest—over in New York(-ish), Jets fans have celebrated Schottenheimer's exit with nearly as much fervor as Rams fans managed when the Cleveland Browns poached Pat Shurmur this time last year. All the complaints wielded against Josh McDaniels at the Edward Jones Dome have been applied at MetLife Stadium—Schottenheimer's playbook is incomprehensible, common-senseless, too pass-heavy and not adaptable enough. It might make you a little cynical about the Rams' prospects next year, but I do have one piece of good news: Sam Bradford is at least as good as Mark Sanchez.

    Sanchez—thrown into the fray early like Bradford—has had better pieces, better teams, and little more going for him, even in his two AFC Championship appearances. In 2009 he was the quarterback we all wished Bradford could be in 2010—allowed to learn on the job thanks to the talent around him, Sanchez made just 364 attempts in 15 games and was not very effective while he did it, finishing his rookie season with 12 touchdowns, 20 interceptions, and a DVOA of -21.9%.

    Things came together in 2010 and 2011, and he's been on either side of average since, taking on more of an offensive responsibility in the process. In 2009 Sanchez (who Wally Pipped current Rams backup Kellen Clemens) made 364 attempts, against 607 rushes from Thomas Jones, Shonn Greene and company. By 2011 Schottenheimer had taken the leash off; this year he threw the ball 543 times, against just 443 (considerably less effective) rushes from Shonn Greene and the change-of-pace-guy version of LaDainian Tomlinson. The Jets were confident enough in Sanchez this year to leave nothing but 41-year-old Mark Brunell between their quarterback situation and the waiver wire.

    It's been a reasonable evolution for the average quarterback, if not the pin-up star New York version, a breed who's permanently doomed to a life of being overrated and over-overrated in turn. But the best part of it has been that Sanchez was allowed to learn the most effective parts of quarterbacking on the job. He's inaccurate and he takes too many chances, but that's because he's been allowed to go for the big play, something that will be increasingly important as the offense becomes reliant on his abilities. It paid off this year, when he and Plaxico Burress somehow combined, at times, to be a plausible end-zone threat.

    Both quarterbacks were coddled their rookie seasons. Sanchez sometimes barely seemed there on offense behind the bruising his running backs gave and took, which allowed him to average 12.5 yards on the completions he did make. Sam Bradford wasn't given that luxury; with no depth behind Steven Jackson and no options on offense, Bradford was thrown into Pat Shurmur's ultra-conservative offense and made to move the ball with more four-yard tosses to a streaking Danny Amendola than most people reasonably expected to see in their lifetimes.

    In his much-anticipated debut, he threw the ball 55 times for just 253 yards, and it got worse from there. Not only did he end the season averaging 9.9 yards per completion, he had four games (losses, and only two of them blowouts) in which he took at least 35 attempts and managed fewer than five yards per attempt.

    Through all that—through 590 attempts—he was competent, putting up big counting stats through force of will and sheer reluctance to see A.J. Feeley attempt a pass. But he's never had a chance to play the role of a trusted quarterback, except under duress; the flashes he showed early in the season, mostly in the fake-injury-prone no-huddle the Rams employed against the New York Giants, were rapidly lost beneath a hail of sacks and injured wide receivers.

    We've never had the chance to see Sam Bradford freed up—neither from the responsibility of hitting his safety valves nor the necessity of escaping large, angry, not-especially-deterred defensive linemen. We've never seen Mark Sanchez any other way, although he'd probably trade Bradford a beaten-up locker room for his current "toxic" model.

    I don't know whether Brian Schottenheimer's the answer or not, but whether we'll ever see Sam Bradford free to take risks and develop is the question that should worry Rams fans the most.


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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    I just hope it was Sanchez that sucks as a qb and not Schottenheimer making Sanchez horrible.

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    I'm kinda lost on everybody's expectations...

    The Rams' offense was among the worst in the league in 2011. They scored only 193 points (12.1 points per game), last in the league.

    last year the the Jets scored 23.6 points per game. Almost double the out put of the Rams.

    Brian Schottenheimer Years
    Stat 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
    PPG 19.8 16.8 25.3 21.8 22.9 23.6

    Not sure what most of you are hoping for with our offense going forward.
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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    I'm kinda lost on everybody's expectations...

    The Rams' offense was among the worst in the league in 2011. They scored only 193 points (12.1 points per game), last in the league.

    last year the the Jets scored 23.6 points per game. Almost double the out put of the Rams.

    Brian Schottenheimer Years
    Stat 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
    PPG 19.8 16.8 25.3 21.8 22.9 23.6

    Not sure what most of you are hoping for with our offense going forward.
    Exactly!

    It's funny to watch some of the nervous nellies around here jumping ship already over this hire. Everyone needs to take a breath, calm down, and evaluate the rebuilding of this team with REALISTIC expectations.

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    I find it amusing that whilst some people are ready to hail the great job Clinkscales did as Jets GM, they're unloading on Schottenheimer as the OC. Its almost as if the two worked in entirely different buildings for the last six years and that Schottenheimer is solely to blame for wasting some great Jets drafts.

    Given our ability to make other teams look great but turning our failures into all-pros and coach of the year candidates, lets hope we can pull the same stunt.

    Besides, I'd take any of the jets offenses over the last six years over what I've seen around here for the last three years.
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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Sam Bradford > Mark Sanchez

    End of Discussion!

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    It might make you a little cynical about the Rams' prospects next year, but I do have one piece of good news: Sam Bradford is at least as good as Mark Sanchez.
    Ya think??

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    People should remember what Mike Martz did here and then what he did elswhere, a lot of times it isn't just the nuts and bolts but how it fits, if he fits here it will work if he doesnt we will want his head in a years time, the difference is with leadership like Jeff Fisher the people who don't produce will be answering for it, not given opportunity after opportunity to stink up the joint.

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    I'm kinda lost on everybody's expectations...

    The Rams' offense was among the worst in the league in 2011. They scored only 193 points (12.1 points per game), last in the league.

    last year the the Jets scored 23.6 points per game. Almost double the out put of the Rams.

    Brian Schottenheimer Years
    Stat 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
    PPG 19.8 16.8 25.3 21.8 22.9 23.6

    Not sure what most of you are hoping for with our offense going forward.
    I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.

    During the three-year span when Josh McDaniels was the offensive coordinator of the Patriots, their offense averaged over 28 points per game. Even during his time in Denver, the Broncos averaged over 20 points per game. Then he came here and led one of the worst Rams offenses we've ever seen.

    You can't just point to a team's numbers in another organization and assume the same production will be matched here. If that were the case, we wouldn't be looking for a new offensive coordinator. But reality isn't always that easy.

    Now, maybe Schottenheimer can come to St. Louis and help turn this offense into an efficient unit. I hope he can. But I think some people, myself included, are worried about some of the things that occurred in New York that changed him from an up and coming head coach candidate a few years ago to the goat of that team this year.

    Having said that, I'm not a big Mark Sanchez fan, so I understand that as a coordinator, Schottenheimer may have been handcuffed by what he had at quarterback. But then you look at a team like San Francisco, who put a bust like Alex Smith back behind center this year and made it to the NFC Championship game by not asking him to be more than he is, and it gets you thinking.

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    I think the failure of the Jets offense can be laid right at the feet of Rex himself. The atmosphere that guy breeds just isn't conducive to team play. Why would the offense listen to anything Shotty had to say or respect him in any way when their head coach is a pompous buffoon who lets them act however they want?
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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.
    My point is we scored 12.1 points per game and we are not going to try and open it up like the Packer or Patriots. We are going to play a very conservative offense and that might be very disappointing to some.

    During the three-year span when Josh McDaniels was the offensive coordinator of the Patriots, their offense averaged over 28 points per game. Even during his time in Denver, the Broncos averaged over 20 points per game. Then he came here and led one of the worst Rams offenses we've ever seen.
    Well in all fairness to McD he did not have to install the offense with no off season with the other two clubs. Then all the injuries did not help. The bottom line is the Rams offense was as you put it the worst Rams offenses we've ever seen.


    You can't just point to a team's numbers in another organization and assume the same production will be matched here. If that were the case, we wouldn't be looking for a new offensive coordinator. But reality isn't always that easy.
    I agree that you can never assume what a coach did with another team he will be able to duplicate with different talent on a different team. I think it's fair to say that's what the expectation will be good or bad. In Schottenheimer case it seems as though he's getting this bad rap for how his offense preformed when in fact he did much better then we did last year and he is the scape goat. Just think if he scored 12.1 points per game he would have been run out of NY before week six!


    Now, maybe Schottenheimer can come to St. Louis and help turn this offense into an efficient unit. I hope he can. But I think some people, myself included, are worried about some of the things that occurred in New York that changed him from an up and coming head coach candidate a few years ago to the goat of that team this year.
    Back in the day when he was red hot he was working with Drew Brees and Philip Rivers. Might have helped him.

    Before landing in New York, Schottenheimer served four seasons as the quarterbacks coach for San Diego. There, he tutored a pair of Pro Bowl signal callers in Drew Brees and Philip Rivers.
    I think efficient will sum up our offense. I think it's fair to say a Rex Ryan run club is not the norm. Maybe that had more to do with his success or lack there of it then the players. Schottenheimer was working in a circus environment. He's coming to a Jeff Fisher coached team and I think we all can agree that it will be night and day from Rex's we will win the super bowl, hot air style.


    Having said that, I'm not a big Mark Sanchez fan, so I understand that as a coordinator, Schottenheimer may have been handcuffed by what he had at quarterback. But then you look at a team like San Francisco, who put a bust like Alex Smith back behind center this year and made it to the NFC Championship game by not asking him to be more than he is, and it gets you thinking.
    I think this goes back to my point... what are fans exceptions with Fisher he hired Schottenheimer to create a run first offense. Gets me thinking some fan are not going to be happy with the conservative style we are going to be playing.


    “I am really excited to have Brian join our staff,” Fisher said. “He is a well respected coach in this league who has had success for many years at a high level as an offensive coordinator. We share the same philosophies on the offensive side of the ball and I think he is a tremendous addition to our staff.”

    That philosophy is one that preaches controlling the line of scrimmage and the ball by pounding away in the running game but maintaining balance in the pass game with an emphasis on protecting the quarterback.
    Last edited by Rambos; -01-23-2012 at 08:55 PM.

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Im more excited about Greg Williams creating shorter fields for Schottenheimer. Conservative offenses are more concerned about making the first down markers than heaving 40 yard bombs. Shorter fields help if you only have to get 3 first downs to get into scoring range.


    Sanchez & Bradford
    lemons & lemon soufflé

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambos View Post
    I agree that you can never assume what a coach did with another team he will be able to duplicate with different talent on a different team. I think it's fair to say that's what the expectation will be good or bad. In Schottenheimer case it seems as though he's getting this bad rap for how his offense preformed when in fact he did much better then we did last year and he is the scape goat. Just think if he scored 12.1 points per game he would have been run out of NY before week six!
    Maybe I'm off base, but I don't think that's what people find disappointing about the hire. You could have thrown a dart at a pinwheel of the other 31 offensive coordinators in this league and any one you hit would have run an offense that did better than the Rams.

    I really don't think that's the concern. When it comes to expectations, I think the argument being made is that Schottenheimer didn't get the Jets' offense to live up to theirs. While they've had a couple of seasons of strong rushing output, their passing offense and total offense really hasn't been more than average. In fact, the Jets' passing averages over Schottenheimer's span rank in the 30% (ProFootballReference on that one).

    Only once in his six years as coordinator has the Jets' offense finished in the Top Ten in points, and that's not simply a side effect of being a conservative offense. The Falcons and Giants have spent consecutive years in the Top Ten in that category, and I wouldn't call their offenses aggressive.

    When you read the opinion of the Jets fan that was kind enough to come share his thoughts with us, there are some certainly some positives but also some disturbing notes as well (moved away from previous successful gameplans, put too much on the QB's plate, even offensive strengths [OL] regressed in 2011).

    So I think the expectations that Schottenheimer has fallen short of achieving are with his former team - helping his franchise QB take the next step, progressing the offense rather than regressing it, etc. It would be ridiculous to suggest this is all one guy's fault, but it would be equally ridiculous IMO to suggest he's a scapegoat who didn't have a hand in the Jets' disappointing production this year.

    Considering Sanchez is still underperforming in the eyes of many, it's interesting that Schottenheimer gets credit for the work he's done with other quarterbacks; in the case of Brees, Rivers, and Favre, they all seemed to excel once they got away from Schottenheimer (Brees as a first-year Saint in '06, Rivers as a first-year starter the same year, and Favre in his first year with the Vikings after leaving the Jets). If I'm being honest, I'm not sure I see much in Schottenheimer's past that makes me confident he's going to help Bradford become one of the top quarterbacks in the league.

    Having said that, I do think he's a good fit for what Fisher is looking for in terms of a guy who is going to establish the run and then mix in some play-action. He's certainly a better match with Fisher than McDaniels was with Spags, I believe. But there's enough there to worry me as well. I hope he turns out to be better than I expected. I think the best thing he has going for him is that he was hired by an experienced head coach who likely knows exactly what he wants offensively and who can deliver it. Only time will tell if it works out.

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    Re: Sam Bradford Vs. Mark Sanchez

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Maybe I'm off base, but I don't think that's what people find disappointing about the hire. You could have thrown a dart at a pinwheel of the other 31 offensive coordinators in this league and any one you hit would have run an offense that did better than the Rams.

    I really don't think that's the concern. When it comes to expectations, I think the argument being made is that Schottenheimer didn't get the Jets' offense to live up to theirs. While they've had a couple of seasons of strong rushing output, their passing offense and total offense really hasn't been more than average. In fact, the Jets' passing averages over Schottenheimer's span rank in the 30% (ProFootballReference on that one).

    Only once in his six years as coordinator has the Jets' offense finished in the Top Ten in points, and that's not simply a side effect of being a conservative offense. The Falcons and Giants have spent consecutive years in the Top Ten in that category, and I wouldn't call their offenses aggressive.

    When you read the opinion of the Jets fan that was kind enough to come share his thoughts with us, there are some certainly some positives but also some disturbing notes as well (moved away from previous successful gameplans, put too much on the QB's plate, even offensive strengths [OL] regressed in 2011).

    So I think the expectations that Schottenheimer has fallen short of achieving are with his former team - helping his franchise QB take the next step, progressing the offense rather than regressing it, etc. It would be ridiculous to suggest this is all one guy's fault, but it would be equally ridiculous IMO to suggest he's a scapegoat who didn't have a hand in the Jets' disappointing production this year.

    Considering Sanchez is still underperforming in the eyes of many, it's interesting that Schottenheimer gets credit for the work he's done with other quarterbacks; in the case of Brees, Rivers, and Favre, they all seemed to excel once they got away from Schottenheimer (Brees as a first-year Saint in '06, Rivers as a first-year starter the same year, and Favre in his first year with the Vikings after leaving the Jets). If I'm being honest, I'm not sure I see much in Schottenheimer's past that makes me confident he's going to help Bradford become one of the top quarterbacks in the league.

    Having said that, I do think he's a good fit for what Fisher is looking for in terms of a guy who is going to establish the run and then mix in some play-action. He's certainly a better match with Fisher than McDaniels was with Spags, I believe. But there's enough there to worry me as well. I hope he turns out to be better than I expected. I think the best thing he has going for him is that he was hired by an experienced head coach who likely knows exactly what he wants offensively and who can deliver it. Only time will tell if it works out.
    Yeah this is a very well thought out response and spot on.

    I'm not sure I see much in Schottenheimer's past that makes me confident he's going to help Bradford become one of the top quarterbacks in the league.
    I agree... but Fisher hired Schottenheimer to run the ball. Bradford will be at best Eli Manning. He's not going to get to throw it all over the yard IMO.

    Having said that, I do think he's a good fit for what Fisher is looking for in terms of a guy who is going to establish the run and then mix in some play-action.
    That's where I may have struggled to explain "expectations", when Hue was past over. Hue would have gotten more out of Bradford no doubt. Heck McD would get way more out of Bradford and he had a year in the system already. Fisher is going to dial it way back.

    I may have missed the argument about what he did or did not do with the Jets, they are a circus to me hard to really know what is going on. Lets see if Sanchez takes off next year now that Schottenheimer out.
    Last edited by Rambos; -01-23-2012 at 11:26 PM.

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