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  1. #31
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey
    He's the best guy on this line, huh? More an indictment of how the rest of them stink rather than an illustration of Incognito's ability. Kind of like praising someone for being the tallest dwarf- it doesn't mean a helluva lot.
    What it means, Jersey, is that there are 4 other dwarves that need replacing on the dwarf league basketball team before anyone worries about the tall one.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #32
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    The truth is Cogs is the best OL on this roster
    ...does not compute, does not compute....

    Sorry HUb, but we did this dance in another thread, and the music is playing again. Incognito is second on the team in most sacks allowed this year. After yesterday's outing, he now leads the team in penalties over Alex Barron with ten total. He had his eleventh voided because it was offsetting with a Seattle penalty.

    Using what standard do you get to be named our best OL when that's how you're performing? The "watching the games" standard, which seems to ignore any statistical analysis of a player's performance? I mean, Richie would have to be a Hall of Fame caliber run blocker to make up enough ground to be named this team's best OL. And that, IMO, he's not.

    I just don't see how you expect to convince anyone of this claim when the accumulated numbers for Richie so clearly suggest the opposite. Maybe since we last debated a week ago, you've found a way to get around the numbers, I dunno. But they're still a hang up for me, and even if I "watched the game" yesterday, I wouldn't have seen Richie at his best.

  3. #33
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    we did this dance in another thread, and the music is playing again.
    You'll have to take it up with Haslett. His words.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #34
    HUbison's Avatar
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    The "watching the games" standard, which seems to ignore any statistical analysis of a player's performance?
    And how many rushing yards are attributable to Cogs blocking compared to the blocking of others on this line or other linemen in the league? And what pass protection score do you give Cogs or other linemen factoring in blitzes, and other variables?

    I don't know, but the coaches do. And again, the only assessment I've heard from them is that Incognito has been the best lineman this year.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  5. #35
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Look, bottomline here people, Incognito is nowhere near the liability that some are making him out to be. And for those that want Incognito cut for all his "dirty play", don't be whining about how the choir boy that replaces him is less of a player.

    That's all.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #36
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Look, bottomline here people, Incognito is nowhere near the liability that some are making him out to be. And for those that want Incognito cut for all his "dirty play", don't be whining about how the choir boy that replaces him is less of a player.

    That's all.
    Maybe that's what our O-line is missing. A singing tackle, guard or center?

  7. #37
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You'll have to take it up with Haslett. His words.
    Y'know, if I had Jim's phone number sitting around, or if I was a St. Louis-based journalist, maybe I would take it up with him. But I can't. So I'm doing the next best thing I can do - taking it up with the guy who continues to propagate that opinion and refer to it as "truth." Is that asking too much?

    You continue to cling to Haslett's statement - made during a period when Richie was being blasted for comments he made about the fan base, mind you - as the reason why Incognito is in fact the best, even though it flies in the face of third-party statistics that clearly suggest otherwise.

    So I think that begs the question, do you think the coaches are ever wrong about player evaluations? I know you do because you're a smart guy, but at what point do you begin to think that maybe a coach is wrong in how they view a player? I only ask because it would seem to me that if you're going to defer to the coach in this instance, wouldn't you use the same logic in other personnel situations? Where is the line?

    Was Scott Linehan wrong to cut Madison Hedgecock for Richard Owens, or should we just trust his evaluation? Has Jim Haslett been right in viewing Corey Chavous as a starting-caliber player up until last week, or should we draw our own conclusion about Chavous' play? Or are we, as fans, able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusion, even if it might be opposite of a coach's?

    When it comes to the X's and O's and the actual knowledge of the game of football, I have no doubt whatsoever that Jim Haslett dwarfs me completely. It would be an embarrassing day for me trying to go head to head against him when it comes to knowledge of the game. But that doesn't make him infallible in his opinions, it doesn't mean everything he says about a player is right, and it doesn't mean we as fans don't sometimes get them right when the coaches don't. It certainly doesn't mean the analysis and numbers accumulated by Stats Inc are meaningless simply because Jim Haslett disagrees.

    You say Richie isn't the liability some make him out to be. Well, when it comes to penalties along the offensive line, right now he is our biggest liability. When it comes to preventing sacks along the offensive line, he is our second biggest liability. I'm sorry HUb, but those are the numbers. Unless you think Stats Inc just made them up out of thin air, that's what we're dealing with. He could be an oustanding run blocker, but he's one of this team's worst pass protectors when it comes to sacks allowed, and he's this team's most penalized lineman.

    So maybe he's not the liability some view him as, but I am still at a loss as to how that makes him the team's best lineman, even if you credit him as being a great run blocker. And I'm sorry, but "because Jim Haslett said so" is not a convincing argument.

  8. #38
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    One penalty was on an extra point attempt that was enforced on the kickoff. That kickoff led to a 3-&-out by Arizona. The next two penalties came on the same series that ended with a Frerotte interception. The ensuing Cardinals series ended with a Kurt Warner interception.

    The final penalty may be the only one that actually caused any damage. On 2nd & 3, Leonard ran for 1 yard that would have made it a 3rd & 2; however, Cogs holding penalty made it 2nd & 13 instead. Frerotte's next play was an interception. Maybe, if Cogs doesn't commit that penalty, Leonard runs 2 yards on 3rd down. Of course, maybe if Cogs doesn't hold, Leonard gets hit in the backfield for a loss and the pass has to be made anyway. And the defense had two 3rd and long chances on the next series and stopped neither.

    Again, there's no way to pin a game on one player.
    Hey HUb, I'm just going by what Incognito said himself. He seems to feel he was as responsible as anybody by saying "I killed us today".

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You'll have to take it up with Haslett. His words.
    Weren't these also Haslett's words, "If we lost the game, Richie might not be here today.”

  9. #39
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    Re: Seahags love Cogs

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    You'll have to take it up with Haslett. His words.
    You mean the guy whose forte is on the other side of the ball and whose team is currently mired in an 8 game losing streak?

    Remember, this is a guy who thought Aaron Brooks was a workable quarterback.

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