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  1. #16
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by PTHOR
    With the talent we have on this team, we should be one of the best in the NFL, but look at us- struggling with lame teams!
    I wish when people tried to make this claim, they actually provided some proof to support it. I bet if they actually sat down and tried to evaluate, they'd find it more disappointing than they originally thought.

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  2. #17
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by PTHOR
    I don't hate Martz, but he sucks as a head coach!

    With the talent we have on this team, we should be one of the best in the NFL, but look at us- struggling with lame teams!

    Find a replacement!
    The talent peak that this team once had was built by Martz. Just my opinion, of course, but the GSOT was a product of Martz. The talent level that we see ourselves with now and have for a long time is nowhere......I repeat, nowhere what it was. The players that remain from the old days are themselves old. There is nothing on this team that remains from the GSOT except Martz, Pace, and Holt. Everyone else is either gone or way past their prime. And now Martz is gone.

    Is the offense still talented? Yes
    Are they as talented as they were 5 years ago? Not a chance
    Has the defense EVER been talented? No, when we have thrived it's because the once highly talented offense jumped out to quick leads and made opponents one-dimensional.

    All of this, of course, is just one man's opinion.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #18
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    The talent peak that this team once had was built by Martz.
    How did he build that talent? He was not even with the Rams. What players did he draft or sign?

    I do not understand why so many Rams fans keep saying this?

    Martz is a good head coach and he was a great OC, but the offensive talent was here. He helped coach some of the talent at first and then he took over the head coaching of the talent.

    He did not build the talent on the offense.

    In fact at the start of the 2005 season only three players on the starting offensive unit came under Martz:

    Bulger, Manu and Tucker.

    If you wanna count Williams, go ahead, but he was with the Rams in 98.



  4. #19
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Ferter is a 100% correct the best players that Martz has had come before MM was HC.

    If you want to argue for MM base it off what he did with the tallent he had given to him from 2000 on when he was the HC. 1999 was Vermiels year as a HC not Martz. Martz has made it to a super bowl but never won one as a HC.

  5. #20
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferter
    He did not build the talent on the offense.
    Martz predates Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, & Trent Green. Who was Kurt Warner before Martz got here? For that matter, what did Dick Vermeil have to show for himself before Martz got here? The feud between Vermeil and Bruce prior to the arrival of Martz was well documented by the St. Louis media. Prior to 1999, the Rams O scoring hadn't broken the top 20 since the move to St. Louis. Martz shows up and they are the top ranked offense three years in a row.

    You may not agree that he made the GSOT, but let's not pretend like it was a parting gift from Vermeil that was handed to Martz. No Martz.....we don't score points.....Martz shows up, our offense scores points. I, for one, don't see that as a coincidence.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  6. #21
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Quote Originally Posted by PTHOR
    I don't hate Martz, but he sucks as a head coach!
    "Sucks" is such an....extreme word. Marty Mornhinweg and Vince Tobin sucked as head coaches, Mike Martz does not suck as a head coach. Not even close.

  7. #22
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    If Mike Martz is so horrible at drafting and bringing in big-name free agents, where the hell did we get all this "potential dynasty" talent from?

    Curious.

    [not to mention all those future hall of famers that mike martz is personally responsible for letting leave the team]
    Last edited by evil disco man; -10-30-2005 at 12:07 AM.

  8. #23
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Martz predates Marshall Faulk, Torry Holt, & Trent Green.
    The decision to cut banks loose, acquire a new RB and WR had been made prior to the hiring of Martz. Did Martz have input towards the signing of Faulk, Green and the drafting of Holt? Probably, but I'm not gonna pretend that Martz was handed carte blanche, for personnel, the minute he arrived as an OC . Even as head coach, there are now reports that, Martz has not been given all that he has asked for regarding personnel.

    Who was Kurt Warner before Martz got here?
    Some former arena league QB. Nothing more than a back-up and whipping boy after Martz arrived.

    For that matter, what did Dick Vermeil have to show for himself before Martz got here?
    Entered the league as the first special teams coach in NFL history with the L.A. Rams (1969). Head Coach at UCLA (1974-75). Guided the Bruins to a Rose Bowl victory following the 75 season. Was head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles from 1976-1982. Named NFL coach of the year in 1980. Guided Philadelphia to Super Bowl XV after the 1980 season.

    Was well respected amongest his peers, including the likes of John Madden and Bill Walsh.

    Was out of coaching for 14 years and returns to a hapless Rams team for the 1997 season.

    DV found out that some of his methods were outdated, with the players of the day, and he knew his offense had become stale. He did not quit, instead he sought out a new OC. In January of 1999 DV hand picked and hired a guy, who was coaching QB's for the Redskins, as his new OC.

    The feud between Vermeil and Bruce prior to the arrival of Martz was well documented by the St. Louis media.
    A lot of players on the losingest team of the 90's did not see eye to eye with DV. Should we say that the players attitudes and work ethic had been stellar up to that point? Maybe it is just me, but I imagine you are going to butt a few heads along the way when trying to mold a perennial DOG into a champion.

    You may not agree that he made the GSOT, but let's not pretend like it was a parting gift from Vermeil that was handed to Martz.
    I am not the one who is pretending about anything. It is fact that DV was the head coach during the 1999 season. It is fact that the offense was in place prior to Martz becoming head coach.

    In my book DV gets credit as the head coach who led the Rams to victory in SB 34. Did he have help along the way? Of course. It takes an entire team effort. Coaches and players alike.

    Did Martz help mold the offensive players into a high powered scoring machine? Sure he did.

    Did Martz blow up the defense and lead the Rams back to SB 36? Sure he did.

    Did he himself have help? You bet, but I am not going to dismiss Martz and give Lovie all the credit.

    My bottom line is that I don't think it is fair to dismiss DV to try and justify Martz as a great head coach. If there are those who wanna pretend that Martz was the head coach during the 99 season and the sole reason the Rams won SB34, then so beit, but I won't do it, because it is not true and it is unfair.



  9. #24
    sbramfan is offline Registered User
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    Re: Shaw must end turmoil, dump Martz quickly

    Regardless of what Martz has or hasn't accomplished, it looks like their will be a divorce. Bernie is saying to do it now, but there really is no need to fire a coach who is out sick.

    The best thing for Shaw to do (not that he will) is to drop the Martz topic, let Vitt do his thing without all this disruption, and then cut Martz at the end of the year.

    Perhaps since Vitt doesn't like all the stuff that now goes along with coaching, maybe he'd be perfect for the job, given what the FO is looking for. Let Shaw and Zygmut do their FO thing (assuming they're both still there), and he can just do the coaching. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

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