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  1. #46
    Curly Horns's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Well, I guess copying and pasting the same thing over again is supposed to clear something up? I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to imply though. Are you trying to say that Holt made up for Bulger's overthrow by increasing his speed to cover the distance to the ball?
    Bottom line is Bulger overthrew the ball by a few yards. Holt did everything he could do to catch the pass. Diving or leaving his feet would not have helped in this case. He was running full speed and kicked it in just to stretch as far as he possibly could and snag it out of the air with one hand. He almost caught it, however, it was still a very difficult pass to catch. The timing was just not perfect and Bulger threw the ball a few yards to deep.




    I felt my first analysis was a bit emotional and unfair to Holt & Bulger. To be fair and objective to both players this is my final analysis.


  2. #47
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    The horse that is this topic has been beaten to the point that it could be easily sipped through a straw.

  3. #48
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Quote Originally Posted by general counsel
    I am a supporter of bulger, but with a receiver that open and no one in his face, the throw has to be better.
    It would be nice if it was better, there's no question about that. But let's not be mistaken: it was a catchable pass, and that's been my point. Heck, one of my first posts in this topic said it wasn't an incredibly accurate throw. But it did get there, and it was close enough for Holt to get his hands on it.

    Regardless, show me a quarterback who can consistently throw 50-yard bombs right over his receiver's shoulders and right into his waiting arms. This was probably one of the better deep passes the Rams could have hoped for out of Marc Bulger, if not any quarterback, given this situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ferter
    I felt my first analysis was a bit emotional and unfair to Holt & Bulger. To be fair and objective to both players this is my final analysis.
    Since I guess I'm asking too much to get a different response out of you, I'll stop wasting my time by making my own responses and presenting new logical perspectives to counter what you're saying.

    Although I find it funny how you say the analysis in question was too emotional and unfair even though --- according to you -- you made it right after watching the film and seeing with your own eyes what happened, which would produce the most accurate objective opinion on what transpired.

    Oh well. You'd think after so many threads, I'd just learn not to waste my time.
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  4. #49
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    The catch would have been a tough one. Impossible? No. The catch Ricky Proehl made against the Bucs in 99 was as close to impossibe as there is. He did have a defender all over him, he had to jump up to get the ball, and most impressive of all, he caught the ball with one arm. Not a hand but an arm. I like Holt, but he should have caught that ball and to this day; I feel Bruce would have caught that ball.
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  5. #50
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Almost as surprising as your endless criticism of our starting QB, eh?
    See below with an emphesis on "difficult to blame Bulger":

    I agree that the play was a great call by Martz, executed by all to near perfection, just a half step off. No way can I blame Holt, and it's difficult to blame Bulger. Just one of those crushing bad twists of fate.
    CONTRUCTIVE criticism. As I've stated before, I'm fine with Bulger. Good quarterback who needs a few tweeks, but I'm still behind him 100% because as you said, he's our starting quarteback. That does not mean he gets a free pass when it comes to criticism.

  6. #51
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    CONTRUCTIVE criticism. As I've stated before, I'm fine with Bulger. Good quarterback who needs a few tweeks, but I'm still behind him 100% because as you said, he's our starting quarteback. That does not mean he gets a free pass when it comes to criticism.
    Yet our criticism on Holt isn't constructive or necessary -- rather, we're just bashing him.

    Again, go figure.
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  7. #52
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    The comment was made that there was no Holt bashing going on, which in my opinion was debatable.

    If saying Bulger made a slight overthrow of a critical pass is bashing, then yes, I was bashing Bulger.

  8. #53
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    The comment was made that there was no Holt bashing going on, which in my opinion was debatable.
    Alright, let's play it your way then. Let's say, in a hypothetical situation (maybe this one won't be ignored), that this is Holt bashing. If that's the case, then what's the point you're trying to get at by making that potential accusation? Because clearly if our one criticism of Holt constitutes bashing, you've taken part in your fair share against Bulger in the multiple threads in which you've blamed him for various things, no? So if you're faulting us for possibly bashing Holt in this situation, do you fault yourself for bashing Bulger over multiple threads?

    Perhaps it would be best if one of us defined "bash" so that we both have a working definition to go off of. Because as I said earlier, there's a difference between criticizing and full-force bashing someone, and what I feel most of us are doing here is making a fair criticism of a specific play. I believe that any criticism is fair so long as it's based on facts, whereas bashing someone is making a criticism that's either [a] based on misinformation (ex. "Bulger struggles in the red zone") or [b] composed of broad statements with no supporting evidence (ex. "Kurt Warner's washed up").

    Since we're elaborating on things, perhaps it would be best if you elaborated on how we're bashing Torry?
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  9. #54
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Nick, how about this, my criticism of Bulger could be interpreted as bashing, as criticism of Holt could be interpreted as bashing, as criticism of Martz could be interpreted as bashing, as criticism of Warner could be interpreted as bashing. I guess it depends on where you stand and what your perspective is, which is different for all of us. There's a thin line between criticism and bashing and I'm sure sometimes differences of opinion can blur it. We're all guilty in that sense wouldn't you say?

    I can honestly tell you that I gave as much praise to Bulger as criticism on "that other board". I started a thread, "Maybe it's time we stop bashing Bulger" that I got crucified over, but held my ground on because I think there is much more upside to him than downside.

    Hope that works for you 'cause I'm done with this thread. It was entertaining.

  10. #55
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Hope that works for you 'cause I'm done with this thread.
    You call out Bulger on a number of things you perceive as problems, and that's supposed to be fine and dandy. Some of us call out Holt on what we see as a negative, and now we're "bashing" him. What works for me is the elimination of that double standard, and people not throwing around an implication that I'm being unfair when they've done exactly the same thing to a greater extent. I hope that works for you.
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  11. #56
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    Wink Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Well, I really hate to drag this thread back up, but just for you Nick, I will do so. I guess in all fairness you do deserve an explanation, however, I am hoping this is going to be a one shot deal. You know how when you first look at a play there is an emotional reaction to seeing a guy come so close to making a diffucult catch, you instantly say or think; oh man he should have caught it. Well after reading other responses and re-viewing the play again the following day, I considered that to be the case of my first analysis after watching the replay. Holt made a gallant attempt and I felt that it was unfair to say that he definately should have caught it, regardless of his self-proclaimed name of Big Game or his elite status.


    As I originally stated he got one hand on the ball at the carolina 24, if the pass had reached him at the carolina 26 then I think the timing would have been perfect. That was my basis for the few yards. I could not detect that he was running any faster, but his body language, facial expression, and the movement of his arms gave an indication that he was kicking it in just to get one hand on the ball. I don't think you are neccesarily being unfair to Holt, but maybe you could give him an inch or two or the benefit of doubt. Bulger made a gallant attempt at the pass as well and I don't blame him any more than I blame Holt. It's just one of those almost plays where the timing was not perfect for success. Holt could have caught it and he almost did, but to be truly fair I had to back off from saying he should definately have caught it.

  12. #57
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    Ferter, it would seem to me that the emotional reaction you're referring to would have been your memory of the play which was summed up in your first actual response:


    Anyways, I am not sure that Holt, or Bruce for that matter, could have caught that ball. To be fair, I will watch it again, since I still have my tape, but just off the top of my head I think he made a very good attempt at catching that pass. I have also heard it before, but I'm not sure I'm sold on the fact, that if a receiver can get a hand on a ball then he should be able to catch it. To me, it depends on the circumstances and I think it is easier said than done in many cases.
    You said you were going to review the tape and after doing so said:


    Hey guys, after further review....

    Holt should definately have caught that ball.

    Actually, he had the thing. He snagged it out of the air with one hand and pulled it into his chest area, momentarily getting two hands on it and then bobbles it away. He had his man beat by five to seven yards and if he hangs on it should be an easy six. I don't see him break stride, while trying to judge the ball, as it was thrown with a fairly high trajectory. He may slighty adjust his running speed, if so, it is not highly detectable in full speed replay and not at all noticeable in slow mo. He appears to be going full speed with minimal adjustments if any. The ball is slightly overthrown, but Holt appears to have the most trouble with judging the ball because it is at such a high trajectory. Regardless, he certainly should have caught that ball and like I said he actually pulled it in.

    Nick, Bulger was standing on his own 26 when he threw the pass and holt gets his hand on the ball at the panther 24. So the ball basically traveled 50 yards in the air without factoring in trajectory.
    That sounds like a fairly objective analysis. The play is months in the past and you're going back specifically to look as to whether or not Holt should have had it, which you said he should have. You make no reference to re-reviewing the video when you changed your opinion yet again.

    When you talk about being a few yards overthrown, what I'm talking about is the position of the ball relative to Holt himself. Since Holt got a hand on the pass, it is impossible for it to be a few yards overthrown, in my opinion. What you're saying, if I understand it correctly, is that if Bulger threw the ball over the same amount of time but put it on the 26-yard line instead of the 24-yard line, then it would have been a perfect throw. Is that right?

    If that's what you're saying, I don't think you can necessarily make that claim because that's a hypothetical situation. Unless we know for sure Bulger was aiming a few yards back, then it would seem impossible to claim the ball was actually a few yards overthrown given what we do know. And what we do know is where Holt and the ball meet, and when that happens, the ball is at most two to three feet away from the ideal point of delivery.

    I don't want to sound as if I'm saying that was an easy catch to make. It clearly isn't. Nine out of ten receivers in the league will probably never make that catch. But I feel the elite receivers -- those that have enough confidence and skill to call themselves "Big Game" -- make those kind of grabs. That's what separates the good receivers from the great receivers. Many now consider Torry Holt to be a great receiver. I certainly do. I think if you make a list of the league's top five receivers, Torry's on that list and he's certainly not number five. That's a catch I'd expect one of the league's best to make, especially considering the situation of the game. I'm not going to pull out my Holt voodoo doll and begin working black magic because he didn't catch it. I won't say he's no longer a great receiver in my mind because of that play. I just think he should have caught that. Considering he had it in a hand and brought it in, I guess I don't see how much more of a benefit of the doubt I could give him. It was in his hand, then his hands, then nothing. That means catch it to me, especially if you're Torry Holt.
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  13. #58
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    Smile Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    No, Nick it wasn't my memory, from January, when the game was played. I had not watched that play since that day in January. When I looked at the tape that first night, when this thread was posted, that was my emotional analysis. I did fail to mention that I had watched it again the next day. I wanted to watch it again without the initial emotions of seeing it again for the first time since January. After watching it again the next day, I then backed off on my "should definately have caught it" statement.

    I am basically saying what you described, however, it is hard to be certain, since this is a timing pattern and Bulger has to throw the ball to a spot that he thinks Torry can get to. It sounds like you will concur with at least a yard, so I am perfectly willing to back off my statement of two yards and settle on "The Longest Yard" (pun intended).

    I will agree that it was a catchable ball for an elite NFL WR. I really don't see how anyone can say otherwise, given the fact that Holt nearly caught it. He had the thing and simply muffed it away. Perhaps it was his momentum or a knee bumping his elbow or something that prevented him from securing it away. Those would be the types of variables that keep me from saying he definately should have caught it. Little things can go wrong on those types of plays, just as easily as they can go right. It is water under the bridge now and the odds are due to change in our favor so Bulger & Holt should hook up on the next one.


  14. #59
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    If the post-tape viewing was your more emotional analysis, so be it. I'm still inclined to think it wouldn't have been since it's the one in which you used the most objective detail in describing the play, but I'll take your word for it. Regardless, it seems we both agree it was a catchable ball yet not an easy catch to make. That's enough for me.
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  15. #60
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    Re: Should Holt have caught the pass against Carolina?

    I look at it this way, if MY defense stops the run that play is irrelevant. We didn't stop the run all game. We made DeShaun Foster look an All Pro.

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