Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    general counsel Guest

    Simple question on Pace

    This topic IS worthy of beating what is hopefully not a dead horse.

    We are an 8-8 team that won a playoff game that had MAJOR problems on our offense line last year. Our best defensive player may or may not be incarcerated by the time we start the season. Cap or no cap, exactly HOW is trading away our best offensive lineman, and one of the best in the league, a guy who even if he didnt have his best season got beat only a handful of times all year and NEVER requires double team help on the qbs blind side, going to help our chances of improving the team in 2005 and beyond. We are not a rebuilding team.

    Furthermore, we still dont have a RIGHT tackle, let alone anyone remotely competent to replace pace. IF we get another left tackle, as avenger says, that is one thing, but the odds of getting a guy even in the same ballpark as pace for 2005 are very, very limited in my view.

    Guys its about performance, even if he isnt willing to discount to market to stay with the team, even if he is selfish, even if he is a distraction, how exactly do you figure that we are better off without him.

    If we spend the money we save on defense, how are we going to protect the qb.

    How much do you think we are actually going to save under the cap. Pace costs 8.2 under the tender. What do you think its going to cost to replace him. Until you replace him, you dont know what the net savings are, and given what left tackles go for these days, i dont think we are going to save anywhere near what some people think we are going to save, and we will in all liklihood be overpaying for inferior talent.

    Very, very sensitive subject for me, i think when people talk about the Big Three that won us the sb title and led to the great run this team has had, Pace is so often overlooked as to the critical nature of his contribution.

    ramming speed to all

    general counsel


  2. #2
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,709
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    It comes down to economics. If Pace takes a deal the FO can afford this year and next (Turley's dead money), then sign him long-term, even if it is for more than the Jones deal. I've always agreed that is option 1. But if he is still being unreasonable, I don't know what other choices we have, but to continue to franchise and look for a trading partner. I mean we can't get blood from a turnip, and if that is all he will sign for, we don't have another choice. Again, 1st option is to get him signed. I just hope all parties come to an agreement within the next 48 hours.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  3. #3
    RealRam's Avatar
    RealRam is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    8,584
    Rep Power
    68

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Point(s) well taken, HUb, GC.

    But not as simple as proposed. It requires pondering, study and, yes, speculation. :tough:

  4. #4
    Tony Soprano Guest

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Depending on what we get, we COULD be better without Pace. However, his attitude is not good AND since he NEVER plays a mini-camp, training camp, or Pre-season - a devasting injury could be right around the corner. That's possible too, he's not getting any younger.

    I knew it was time for Pace to go when after missing Mini-camp, Training Camp and Preseason (when he knew he had to come in or miss a game check), he reported two days before our first game. If you remember we had many injuries on the O-Line and Martz made it known in the media (reads pleading to Pace) that the O-line would be better off if Grant Williams could practice (and Play) at his position instead of having to fill in for Pace. Still Pace shows up two days ahead of time when.. You know he didn't want to work a full week. Pace is looking out for number one (not a team player) and that stuff rubs off. Players see that, rookies see that and players settle in to doing what's best for them individuallly instead of concerning themselves with winning.

    I think Pace played at an Average level for a OLT in 2004. He's not as hard to replace anymore. If we get a starter for the secondary and a First round pick (to replace) Pace, we are better off. Yes, unloading his Franchise-for-life tag plays into the equation.

  5. #5
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    32
    Posts
    19,875
    Rep Power
    154

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
    I think Pace played at an Average level for a OLT in 2004.
    I disagree. I think he played at a poor level by Orlando Pace standards, but probably still played better than a moderate majority of LTs in this league.

    I think GC has a great point. Like it or not, cap or not, we're going to see a rather large dropoff in play if we deal Pace. We're not going to save a huge amount if we drop him and go to FA to get a replacement, looking at what FA tackles are getting on this market. And a rookie isn't going to be able to come in and do well at all, especially out of this class.

    At this point, this is what I'm thinking - if the Rams won't sign Pace to a Jones-like contract because of what it'll do to the cap in 2006, then you find a way to fix the cap in 2006 by restructuring/renegotiating with guys like Bruce, Bulger, Little, etc etc so you have the room to make it work. You don't just throw up your hands and say "Oh well" when the going gets tough.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Four
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  6. #6
    general counsel Guest

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    With all due respect to our esteemed colleague Mr. Soprano, i do not believe that orlando pace is anywhere near an Average left tackle. Exactly how many times did you see him get beat last year. Did you ever see him require help with his guy? Do you see how often the guy playing opposite pace in a game disappears? I agree with nick, he did not have his best year at all, but to call him average is just way off base in my view. If the front office even thought that was the case, he would have been long gone by now.

    Again, i appreciate its about economics. Remember, the rams have to be reasonable also. Pace's value is NOT really determined by other cap problems the rams have. Can he give a little? Sure. Does anyone doubt at this point that if Pace was an unrestricted free agent that did not require compensation he would get way more money than we are offering him?

    general counsel

  7. #7
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,709
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    You don't just throw up your hands and say "Oh well" when the going gets tough.
    This of course makes the assumption that Pace wants to work this out. I hope he does, but as of yet we've seen very little to prove it.
    And a rookie isn't going to be able to come in and do well at all, especially out of this class.
    I don't think they're as bad as all that are they? Kenyatta Walker, Jeff Backus, Maurice Williams, Matt Light, Jonas Jennings, Stockar McDougal, Marvel Smith, Chad Clifton, Levi Jones, Mike Pearson...all rookie staters that won't rate out as high as Barron and Brown. They're maybe not on the same level as Robert Gallery, Jordan Gross, Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Leonard Davis or Chris Samual (also recent rookie starters), but I think either of them will be effective rookies.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  8. #8
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,709
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by GC
    Pace's value is NOT really determined by other cap problems the rams have.
    You're right, his value is not bound to our cap problems, but his offer is. Regardless of value, there is only so much blood in our turnip.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  9. #9
    Nick's Avatar
    Nick is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Morgantown, WV
    Age
    32
    Posts
    19,875
    Rep Power
    154

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    This of course makes the assumption that Pace wants to work this out. I hope he does, but as of yet we've seen very little to prove it.
    I'm still holding out hope that firing the Postons and signing new agents the second the Rams started shopping him at the combine is a sign that he doesn't want to be moved.


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison
    I don't think they're as bad as all that are they? Kenyatta Walker, Jeff Backus, Maurice Williams, Matt Light, Jonas Jennings, Stockar McDougal, Marvel Smith, Chad Clifton, Levi Jones, Mike Pearson...all rookie staters that won't rate out as high as Barron and Brown. They're maybe not on the same level as Robert Gallery, Jordan Gross, Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Leonard Davis or Chris Samual (also recent rookie starters), but I think either of them will be effective rookies.
    My point isn't that a rookie offensive lineman can't start in the NFL. Just that it would be exceptionally difficult for him to start for us... at left tackle.
    ClanRam ModCast: Episode Four
    Rams Discussion Right at Your Fingertips!



  10. #10
    AugustaRamFan Guest

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    GC - Opie got beat at least 3 maybe four times in the Atlanta Game, by Brady Smith (Falcon's DE). He almost got Bulger killed in the latter stages of that game. Granted, the game was out of reach and the O was desperately seeking game breakers, nevertheless, Opie was underwhelming.

    I like Opie, but he comes with baggage -

    Missess Mini-Camps and most if not all pre-season games -
    Becaues of #1 above, he may be a higher risk for serious injury -
    Lack of leadership -
    Projects laziness at times - (represents serious risk of injury for Bulger)
    heavy salary load -
    Can be a liability (if his head is not screwed on right) -

    Yah - I know there is no "I" in team, and yet they have to make their money while they can. And I feel for those who get banged up to the point where they have trouble walking, but let's face it, no one is forcing these guys to do this, they love it - they love the $$$$$ and they get paid darn good to play.

    I guess I expect a lot from a guy making $8MM.....

    Now tell me again why we need him....

  11. #11
    Tony Soprano Guest

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    He played poorly against the Giants after reporting REAL late in 2003, that was the opening day game when Warner was hammered unmercifully.

    This year, the Falcons went around him like a turnstile.

  12. #12
    HUbison's Avatar
    HUbison is offline Superbowl MVP
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Kentucky
    Age
    40
    Posts
    13,709
    Rep Power
    145

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
    He played poorly against the Giants after reporting REAL late in 2003, that was the opening day game when Warner was hammered unmercifully.

    This year, the Falcons went around him like a turnstile.
    Tony, I'm glad you're voicing your opinion, and I'm glad you're a Ram fan....but I can't disagree more. The pressure from the Giants came from the inside not LT. And while he did miss Brady Smith a couple of times, he was far from a turnstile. But, hey, those are your opinions, and these are mine...room enough for both.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  13. #13
    rampete Guest

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    as a ram fan, i'm inclined to say that i'm put off by pace's perceived laziness and me, me, me stance...but as a ram fan, i don't think pace is an "average" OLT. yes, he had an average year allowing more sacks and pressures than i've ever seen him allow, but it may be more attributeable to missing the training camp and preseason...which brings me back to his perceived laziness and ....well, you get the point...

    sometimes, it's better off to let go a great player if it means gaining some balance on the team and especially if the move forces the hand of the HC in that he must change his game planning and learn to adapt to new personnel...

  14. #14
    majorram's Avatar
    majorram is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    London surrey
    Age
    43
    Posts
    1,421
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: Simple question on Pace

    There is just no way that Pace is an 'AVERAGE' tackle, no way.. point one

    Point two I'm still holding out that the Rams can get something done with Pace, some how we have to hang on to this guy, yes I don't know what with, but we have to make this work.. or i will be booking Bulger into the nearest hospital, by about week 2, our line was makeshift as it was, without Pace WELLLLL, man this is getting to me!!!!


    steve :ramlogo:

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •