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Thread: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

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    So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Dungy: Gregg Williams’ Redskins may have started Peyton Manning’s neck issues
    By Doug Farrar | Shutdown Corner

    By the time the "BountyGate" scandal investigation is over, the only thing former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams might not have been blamed for is whatever gas prices happen to be at that time. And now that the bounty system he participated in while with the Saints can be traced back to his time as the Washington Redskins' defensive coordinator, facts that previously came to light are now going under the magnifying glass with a much harsher light cast on them.


    Last September, Cindy Boren of the Washington Post wrote an article in which ex-Indianapolis Colts head coach Tony Dungy put the start of Peyton Manning's longstanding neck injuries and surgeries at a game between the Colts and the Redskins on October 22, 2006. On one play, Manning was given a "high-low" hit by defensive linemen Andre Carter and Phillip Daniels. Those types of hits, in which two defensive players aim for different halves of an offensive player's body, are among the most dangerous in football.



    After the play, Manning lay on the ground for a brief time, got up, and as Dungy told Peter King of SI.com and NBC Sports last September, shook his right arm "as if trying to get the feeling back in it."

    From Boren's story:
    "Earlier in the game," Dungy said, "I'm outraged that there was a flag for roughing-the-passer on Dwight Freeney for just grazing the quarterback's helmet. So I'm yelling at the ref [Scott Green], 'Where's the flag! Where's the flag!' And I don't yell much, but I did then. So I didn't notice Peyton calling timeout and being shaken up. Peyton came to the sideline and said to [backup] Jim Sorgi, 'Jim, start warming up.' As the timeout went on, he said to us, 'I can stay in, but we need to run the ball here.' "
    "Then we sort of forgot about it at halftime, and Peyton seemed fine," Dungy said. "He lit it up in the second half. He was on fire [throwing for 244 yards and three touchdowns]. But that's the year we started cutting back on his throws at practice. I'm not putting two plus two together. I just figure he's getting older and he needs some time off, he's made enough throws. But now, as I look back on it, there's no doubt in my mind that this was the start of his neck problems."


    "The guy wouldn't let go of my head," Manning said after the game of Daniels, who was fined $5,000 by the NFL for the hit. "I looked at my helmet to see if my head was in it."

    Daniels, now the Redskins' director of player development, responded thusly on his Twitter account:

    Funny how Tony Dungy is tracing Manning's neck problem back 5 years ago. I still to this day think it was a good hit and only fined because of who the QB was. Andre pulling him forward and my arm across his chess [sic]going opposite direction and he falls to his knees causing my arm to go higher. Refs saw same thing so that's why there was no flag. Sometimes as a QB you have to know the end of the road and get down instead of trying to make a spectacular throw. I have never been a dirty player so him getting hurt in that game was not me trying to hurt him but rather him being in crazy position. I think he has thrown for a million yards since then and taken a few other hits since 2006. #ItsFootball #Redskins:


    Whether Daniels has a point or not, his contention that Williams never set up or knew of cash bounties for hits taking opponents out of games was categorically refuted by Matt Bowen of the National Football Post and the Chicago Tribune.


    Bowen played strong safety in the NFL for seven years, and he's now one of the better Xs-and-Os analysts in the business. He played for Williams in 2004 and 2005, and wrote this in the Tribune about Williams' system, among other things:


    The cash was kept stashed away at the team facility, in safe hands. After coaches reviewed Sunday's film, we paid it back out. Our accountability, governed by our accounting.
    That's right. We got paid for big hits, clean hits by the rule book.
    Money came in for more than watching a guy leave the field. We earned extra for interceptions, sacks and forced fumbles. If the till wasn't paid out, we just rolled it over.
    Money jumped in the playoffs. A bigger stage equaled more coin. Instead of a few hundred dollars, now you got a thousand, maybe more, depending on the player.
    That's the truth. I can't sugarcoat this. It was a system we all bought into.
    I ate it up.


    "If that meant playing through the whistle or going low on a tackle, I did it," Bowen went on to write, perhaps explaining the conflict between the way players feel -- the way they think they have to feel -- when they're in the game and after they retire.


    "I don't regret any part of it. I can't. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change."


    But as Bowen also wrote, at some point in his life, he's going to have to sit down and tell his kids that "this league isn't for everyone. No doubt, it can be downright disgusting living by a win-at-all-costs mentality."


    And whether Williams was the only one doing this or not over the last few seasons (at this point, let's have an I.Q. higher than that of a houseplant and assume that he wasn't), Bowen's stance that Williams was a teacher who developed him as a player puts the bull's eye entirely on his back. It's bad enough that Williams engaged in a system that shortened and ended the careers of some truly great players, and did so with malicious intent. Far worse is the fact that he instilled the idea in the heads of so many of his own players that this wasn't just the preferable way of doing things -- it was the right way to win.


    In a sport just starting to see the danger from the high school level up as parents become more and more concerned about injuries inherent in football and the mindsets that help create them, Gregg Williams' way must send cold shivers down a lot of spines.

    Even among those who knew exactly what he was doing.

    "You people point your 'f'in' finger and say theres the bad guy....what that make you....good?" Tony Montana

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    i think were gonna keep him lol...

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    No way he goes. Lets not forget Williams and Fisher are best friends.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    No way he goes. Lets not forget Williams and Fisher are best friends.
    We can't afford to take the chance Williams does this again behind everyone's back. He's gone, and if Fisher is going to pick that hill to die on, well, I'll take the 3-13 season and reshuffle again next year. Because if they get caught again running this program, our likely punishment would make the Saints' look like a love tap.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeoriaRam View Post
    We can't afford to take the chance Williams does this again behind everyone's back. He's gone, and if Fisher is going to pick that hill to die on, well, I'll take the 3-13 season and reshuffle again next year. Because if they get caught again running this program, our likely punishment would make the Saints' look like a love tap.
    I've got this 1 crazy idea, just not sure if it'll work. Perhaps they can just..... STOP?!.....

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Much like that Patriot's video taping scandal do we really thing that Williams is the only coach to have done this? Or that he only started doing it recently with the Saints? He just happened to get caught. The Saints will get fined and Williams might get suspended but I doubt he loses his job. After all, the NFL loves redemption stories doesn't it?

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    LOL...knocks the crap outta the PILLARS!!
    MoonJoe likes this.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Quote Originally Posted by DE_Ramfan View Post
    Much like that Patriot's video taping scandal do we really thing that Williams is the only coach to have done this? Or that he only started doing it recently with the Saints? He just happened to get caught. The Saints will get fined and Williams might get suspended but I doubt he loses his job. After all, the NFL loves redemption stories doesn't it?
    1. He ran a program at Washington too

    2. He did it for a Super Bowl Champion the year they won the Super Bowl.

    3. He got outside financing (which is a very bad thing and a road we do not want to go down at all) from a convicted felon whose felonious activities included scalping Super Bowl tickets and hawking counterfeited NFL merchandise (ie stealing from the league.)

    Anyone who thinks Williams is going to skate with a slap on the wrist (or not start doing this again despite the fact the league will watch him like a hawk for the rest of his career) is suffering from a case of Pollyannaism that is excessive even by St. Louis' standards.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    This thing is exploding and the NFL has solid evidence. I'll be surprised if the Rams don't cut ties with Williams. This story is going to get ugly, REAL ugly.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    I work with a formal NFL Player of 8 seasons. He said this stuff happened all the time. He did play for the redskins for a couple years though, but Im pretty sure it was before Greg Williams got there.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Yeah but unlike the Patriots spygate Williams has evidence against him that supports the notion that he wanted to hurt players. He will be fired.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Quote Originally Posted by sosa39rams View Post
    I've got this 1 crazy idea, just not sure if it'll work. Perhaps they can just..... STOP?!.....
    As Williams said himself; "we knew what we were doing was wrong, but did it anyway." ...or something like that. I also read where the NFL found out about something similar in Washington and asked them to stop and the continued.

    So what will be different this time?

    Take a hike Williams.
    Faithful Rams fan since 1968

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Quote Originally Posted by 01d 0rd3r View Post
    Yeah but unlike the Patriots spygate Williams has evidence against him that supports the notion that he wanted to hurt players. He will be fired.
    There was evidence for spygate also, but the league burned it to prevent the "dynasty" they built in NE from being exposed.

    I almost BOLMAO when I read anyone in the league using the word integrity. They lost any right to use that word when they conspired to use the tuck rule to reverse a clear fumble.

    I am NOT defending Williams, and I want him gone with this news coming out. I also didn't want Fisher for exactly this same type of thing. But I refuse to accept any punishment from the league until they negate any cheatroits "championships" since 2001. I am not saying give the wins to another team, just list no winner (AFC and SB) for those seasons. That is the only thing that can start to restore integrity to the league. The next step would be to release the copies of the spygate tapes for all to see them.


    gap

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    I think his position, whether he is ultimately found guilty of encouraging head-hunting or not, may well become untenable.

    I do however find this retrospective conjecture and allegation distasteful.

    If Williams is found guilty of promoting dirty, dangerous play he has to go but reaming through old game tape in an effort to spot prove it after the fact just says to me that you're jumping on the same old carnival float.

    Another question to consider from Kroenke/Fishers point of view is whether Williams can continue as the investigation progresses. A distraction I'd suggest.

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    Re: So long Gregg...we hardly knew ye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Pang View Post
    I think his position, whether he is ultimately found guilty of encouraging head-hunting or not, may well become untenable.

    I do however find this retrospective conjecture and allegation distasteful.

    If Williams is found guilty of promoting dirty, dangerous play he has to go but reaming through old game tape in an effort to spot prove it after the fact just says to me that you're jumping on the same old carnival float.

    Another question to consider from Kroenke/Fishers point of view is whether Williams can continue as the investigation progresses. A distraction I'd suggest.
    Agreed on all counts. Like every other "story" involving something of a controversial nature, this is being given a disproportionate amount of attention and will die down in time. Certainly it should be investigated, but this rush by some to condemn Williams as the most nefarious character in the history of coaching is over the top. I don't think he's going anywhere unless he is shown to have specifically told players to go out and aim for the head neck and knees, and I don't believe that for a second- nor will it be proven.

    If you're gonna' lend creedence to the comments of a snitch/es as to the directives Williams allegedly gave his former players, one must give equal consideration to the comments of former safety Matt Bowen, who roundly praised Williams and said any and all "bounties" were encouraged only by playing within the framework of the rules. But of course, some people would rather take the inflammatory comments as the gospel and dwell on the negative.
    Fat Pang, THOLTFAN81 and Jockelite like this.

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