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  1. #46
    AvengerRam's Avatar
    AvengerRam is offline Moderator Emeritus
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    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    I already gave you stats that show that Bulger has a higher completion percentage and averages more yards and TDs than Hasselbeck. Guess you missed that.

    I gave you stats showing that Jackson's first two years compare favorably to Alexanders'. Guess you ignored that one.

    I could give you stats comparing Isaac Bruce to Nate Burleson, but that would just humiliate you.

    I could point out to you that the Rams had multiple injuries on their O line last year, thus skewing their results, but you apparently are not interested in logic.

    I could remind you that the whole point of this thread was NOT that the Rams are unquestionably better that the Seahawks, but rather that the Rams' overall talent level is comparable enough to Seattle's that, with a few breaks and a relatively healthy season, the Rams could equal or surpass the Hawks this year - but you've apparently lost the point.


  2. #47
    Zero Cool Guest

    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    julian peterson will never be the same player he was, prior to the injury. avenger ram makes a great point, you guys lost hutchinson, alexander lived on the left side, lets see how he does now without a pro bowl og.

  3. #48
    Goldenfleece's Avatar
    Goldenfleece is offline Registered User
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    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    Ooh, I'll take this one:

    "At LB, Seattle may have the advantage with Lofa Tatupu and newly acquired Julian Peterson, but are they really that much better than Witherspoon and Tinoisamoa?"

    Tinoisamoa's stats were better than Julian Peterson's last year. You want proof? Here straight from NFL.com:

    Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
    2005 St. Louis Rams 16 94 71.0 23 1.5 2 35 17.5 20 0 7
    2005 San Francisco ***** 15 82 57.0 25 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 5

    So that's more tackles, 1.5 less sacks, 2 more interceptions, and 2 more passes defended. And here's Tatupu vs. Witherspoon:

    2005 Seattle Seahawks 16 104 85.0 19 4 3 55 18.3 38 1 6
    2005 Carolina Panthers 15 81 66.0 15 2.5 2 35 17.5 35 1 12

    Stats don't tell the whole story either; despite his lower tackle total, Witherspoon was still the leading tackler on one of the best defenses in the country...You see, good defenses keep the offense off the field, so fewer plays are run ( thus there are less total tackles to go around). So for example, offenses ran 60 more plays against the 16th ranked Seahawks defense compared to the 3rd ranked Panthers defense.

    Oh, and btw, that depth inside you mentioned consists of a rookie free agent and an ex-Cardinal who has 2 sacks in the last 3 years. That's not something I'd be bragging about. And since when is Curtis a tot? He's 28. I must not have realized the intrinsic value of having a 33-year-old third receiver.

    Finally, on the subject of Shaun v. Steven:

    If you look at the YPC for their first two seasons, it's actually very close. Steven beats Shaun by .1 in his first year; Shaun beats Steven by .2 in year 2. Shaun had 8 runs for 20+ yards in 304 carries his second year to Steven's 6 in 254 carries. If you don't count rookie seasons, it's true that Jackson hasn't come within 100 yards of Alexander's totals...because Alexander has always gotten at least 40 more carries. That's no fault of Jackson's.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that Witherspoon had an almost identical season to Tatupu's in 2004...
    Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
    16 104 85.0 19 4 3 55 18.3 38 1 6 Tatupu 2005
    16 103 85.0 18 3 4 48 12.0 25 0 8 Witherspoon 2004
    Last edited by Goldenfleece; -08-04-2006 at 01:36 AM.

  4. #49
    OrlandoPaceIsMyHero Guest

    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    Quote Originally Posted by TDubDawg
    "We'll see how Seattle's line does without Hutchinson (I love how Hawk fans act like losing a Pro Bowl OG is no big deal). As for the pass blocking, the Rams throw the ball more and use a lot more 4 WR sets, so its hard to make a comparison based solely on the total number of sacks." Any half-assed guard you stick in between an all-pro tackle and probowl center is going to be fine.
    So this "half-assed guard" is just going to absorb Walter Jones' talent by getting in a 3 point stance next to him? Believe it or not, all three weakside offensive linemen have to be good to block all three weakside defenders. Next year, when Holmgren sends in reliable ol' "Zone Left" and your "half-assed" guard whifs on our weakside linebacker and precious Shaun Alexander gets blown up 3 yards in the backfield, you will quickly come to understand what I mean. Hell, Shaun will see take some serious statistical hits if the guy is anything short of Hutchinson (who, coincidentally, happens to be the best guard in the league as valued by the free agency market!).

    It's amazing to me that these casual fans can't understand what a significant role offensive linemen play in the sport of football. Hutchinson and Jones were both TOP THREE IN THE ENTIRE NFL at their position! Do you seriously believe that if any other team with a top-3 player lost that player, they would see no drop off in performance? So if the Colts lost Manning, the Pats lost Brady, or the Bengals lost Carson, they would all be the same the next year? Well, despite the fact that they get less publicity because their jobs arn't as exciting, absurdly talented players at other positions (those other than QB, RB, WR, MLB, and S, like GUARD) actually effect the game just about as much. Just ask a football player.

    Still think I'm wrong? Take a look at the Hutchinson-less 2007 Seattle Seahawks. We'll see whether you still think that "any half assed guard" is good enough come January.

    One final note on the bigger forces at work here:
    Last year, the Seahawks had accumulated an exceptional amount of talent under one salary cap because of good drafting. The way the modern NFL works, you lose that talent to free agency because you can only pay your team so much money. Ever wonder why the superbowl hangover exists? When teams reach the superbowl, everyone around the league realizes how good the players on the teams that got there are. Many of the good players on the team get lucrative deals to play elsewhere once their talent is recognized. The championship team breaks apart as former role players move on to be stars on other teams. Unless (and now it seems, even if) you've got players taking pay cuts like Tom Brady of the Pats, the free-market valuation catches up to the teams and parity is achieved once again. For better or worse, parity is inevitable in this system unless you can convince your guys to play for less (a la New England Patriots).

  5. #50
    Zero Cool Guest

    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    the oline is the most important thing in football. it paves the way for your offense. i would rather have a so-so qb, and 5 good o-linemen, than a great qb, and a bad o-line.

  6. #51
    RAMMAN68's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    First of all, Bulger has never played a full season, and if your qb cant stay healthy, you are only as good as you backup. matt hasselbeck on his own has your qb position beaten.
    Seems to me he has already had a Pro-Bowl year and if I'm not mistaken, won the Pro-Bowl MVP.

    He dose suck though; with the following stats from last year:

    2005: Finished first in NFC (third in NFL) in average gain (8.00), first in NFC (fourth in NFL) in completion percentage (66.9), and second in NFC (fifth in NFL) in passer rating (94.4)…10,000-yard career passing mark…tied Hall of Famer Dan Marino for the second-fastest quarterback to reach that mark

    And all of this came without finishing the season.

    But Hussledork is a much better QB.

    You sqwak fans are more delusional than ****** fans.
    JUST WIN ONE FOR THE FANS


    "HIT HARD, HIT FAST, AND HIT OFTEN"
    Adm. William "Bull" Halsey

  7. #52
    RamsFanSam's Avatar
    RamsFanSam is offline Pro Bowl Ram
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    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    This is not a smack thread, nor is it posted in the smack forum, so I will not resort to smack. I will also refrain from doing the player stats thing. What I will do is look at this realistically. And, in doing so, I'm going to talk about other teams besides Seattle and St. Louis.

    Arizona looks great on paper. A majority of us would agree with this. They looked good last year, on paper, also. However, they did not get those good looks onto the field. So, explain to me why Arizona can't be as good, or better, than Seattle? You can't. At least, you can't unless you resort to smack, or something close to it.

    OK, so where does that take us? Well, Hawk fans, I'm not going to trash you guys. I'm too classy. Your team worked hard, played hard, and with some luck (yes, it takes luck) you got to the dance. We've been there before. More than once. More than twice. You know what? The following years, it all began again.

    Last year is over. Seattle is tied for first....along with the Rams, and the Texans, and the whiners, and 'Zona. Right now, we are on equal footing. The first snap of the regular season is a month away, and every team has an equal chance to win their division. Hasselbeck could be sacked on the first drive of the season, and end up with a cracked vertebrae. Steven Jackson may rush for 11 TD's against Denver. Anything could change the balance of the NFC West.

    BUT:

    Everyone here has been comparing Martz's Rams against Holmgren's Hawks. It's not that way anymore. We have a new HC. A new DC. A new OC. Half of our roster will probably end up being new faces. Until the season is underway, there is only one way I can answer Av's question:

    We CAN be as good or better than Seattle...or Pittsburgh, or any other team.

    We've done it before. More than once. More than twice.

    We can do it again.

  8. #53
    TDubDawg Guest

    Re: Somebody explain to me why the Rams can't be as good, or better, than Seattle

    Wow where to start. So much interest in my reply.

    I did not say the OLineman taking the place of Hutch would be half-assed, I said you could stick anyone in that spot and they will do fine. We have 3 or 4 people we could stick in that spot that would be solid and would not hinder that line at all. I'm not saying the loss of Hutch didnt hurt, but it's not like our running game will stop. We still have a top 5 offensive line and Shaun will continue to put up 1500+yards and 20+ TDs. I'm not saying he'll repeat his monster '05 year, but he will still be one of the top 3 runningbacks, and our runninggame will be a top3 running game.

    Let's compare Shaun and Steven's fist years as the teams primary backs.

    Shaun-309 attempts, 1318 yards, 4.3 ypc, 14 TDs
    Steven-254 attempts, 1046 yards, 4.1 ypc, 8 TDs

    Like I said, Steven has never come within 100 yards of Shaun's starter stats

    Julian Peterson, last year, was obviously recovering from a serious injury. it was also his first year in a 3-4 defense. This year, he will be fully healed, as reports from TC say, and he will be back in his comfort zone of the 4-3. Reports from camp are that he is extremely healthy, in amazing shape athletically, and ready to contribute. Nobody here has evidence that his injury will continue to hinder him, and obviously nobody can prove against that. Only time will tell.

    And, i never said Bulger wasnt a good qb, when hes healthy. The problem is, how can your qb effectively lead your team to victory when he is stuck on the bench for half the season. And while he is a good qb, a lot of people will get good stats when they have the type of recievers you do and when they are stuck in a Martz-type offense. And RamMan, it is probably easier to have good stats in average completion, rating, and completion percentage when you only have half the season because you have less games against quality defenses to even your stats out. Ranking of the pass defenses of the teams he played against: Seattle-28th (twice) Arizona-10th (twice) SF-32nd Ten-15th NYG-27th IND-16th. He isnt the god you think he is...

    OrlandoPace, i agree, a lot of stars from CS teams usually sign elsewhere. But in this case we lost one big free agent, and pulled in at least two more. We kept Shaun and Bernard, and gained JP and Nate. Not to mention we gained significant depth along both lines and in the secondary.

    You hit the nail on the head on Witherspoon. He had very good numbers, IN ONE OF THE LEAGUE'S TOUGHEST DEFENSES. He was surrounded by amazing talent. Talent, that unfortunately, is still missing from your guys' defense. You cant just take one person out of a great defense, put him in yours and proclaim your defense to be the new muscle. And Tatupu's value goes way beyond his stats. He is the Captain of the defense, the leader. He moves the Dlinemen around when he notices something in the offense to better stop the run. He motivates everybody and pumps everyone up. But ya know, his interceptions, pass deflections and simply being arround the ball on every play are helpful too.
    Last edited by TDubDawg; -08-05-2006 at 03:04 AM.

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