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Thread: Tackle Concerns

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    EvilXenu's Avatar
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    Tackle Concerns

    I have spent a lot of time evaluating our tackles, and I really think that, though its not a priority, and there are a lot of things that need to be addressed first, that we're going to have to replace our tackles with some first-rate studs if we are going to be successful.

    While Pace was once great, and Barron is believed by many to have potential, I have noticed a distinct problem in their foot position prior to the snap that will hinder their ability to peform at a high level. In Pace's case, its a recently developed problem, and something that often occurs when tackles get older. In Barron's case, its a problem that he's always had and, given that at this point we know what we have and its unlikely that he'll improve, I think we have accept that what we have is mediocre tackles.

    Essentially, both players tend to angle their inner foot (Pace's right; Barron's left) at an angle of greater than 30 degrees relative to their outer foot and the line of scrimmage. As any observer of interior lineman will tell you, this causes a distinct reduction in blocking leverage at the point of attack. Typically, this is a problem for young linemen who are below average performers, or aging linemen who are in the twilight of their careers.

    By way of comparison, Jackie Slater, Anthony Munoz, Jonathan Ogden and Walter Jones all have a scrimmage-line angle quotient of 20 degrees or less (as did Pace during the GSOT era) according to a major NFL stats research company.

    Given that the Rams have a long-time OL coach in Paul Boudreau, I think this problem is well known. I understand that Boudreau really wanted to trade up to get one of the top tackles in the draft, and would have taken OTs with the first two picks if he had his choice. You really have to take that type of opinion into account.

    Now, of course, most will say that hte defense is a greater priority, but there is no way this team can succeed with poor OT play. So, after the front 7, is addressed, the interior line is fixed, and the Rams get some young depth at WR, it is clear that the OT situation will need to be addressed.

    And you thought Mike Martz was "mad"!

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    You know, we did just draft a tackle in the first round 2 years ago. When Pace starts slowing down and not able to stonewall pass rushers then we can think about it. We're fine at tackle. Tackle is about the 6th thing on your list, which doesn't really make it a priority. I know you have it as the fourth, but the front seven is lumping things together, it'd be like throwing in the defense needs fixed then the offense, not really helping. Of course the position coach is gonna say he'd take those positions first. The OC is gonna take a QB first, the Running backs coach would take a back first, and so on and so forth. Barron has penalty issues, but he stoped Strahan and the funny named guy from Tennessee, he's fine I don't know why we need to replace him.

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    This may sound crazy, but I would trade Pace for a first rounder and more. This next years draft is VERY deep with OT's especially in the first day in the draft. Not only that but the Rams could use some defensive help as well at S,CB,LB,DL. The defense really has to get better before the Rams can seriously contend for a conference championship.

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Light Guy View Post
    This may sound crazy, but I would trade Pace for a first rounder and more. This next years draft is VERY deep with OT's especially in the first day in the draft. Not only that but the Rams could use some defensive help as well at S,CB,LB,DL. The defense really has to get better before the Rams can seriously contend for a conference championship.
    You're right ... It does sound crazy!

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilXenu View Post
    I have spent a lot of time evaluating our tackles, and I really think that, though its not a priority, and there are a lot of things that need to be addressed first, that we're going to have to replace our tackles with some first-rate studs if we are going to be successful.

    While Pace was once great, and Barron is believed by many to have potential, I have noticed a distinct problem in their foot position prior to the snap that will hinder their ability to peform at a high level. In Pace's case, its a recently developed problem, and something that often occurs when tackles get older. In Barron's case, its a problem that he's always had and, given that at this point we know what we have and its unlikely that he'll improve, I think we have accept that what we have is mediocre tackles.

    Essentially, both players tend to angle their inner foot (Pace's right; Barron's left) at an angle of greater than 30 degrees relative to their outer foot and the line of scrimmage. As any observer of interior lineman will tell you, this causes a distinct reduction in blocking leverage at the point of attack. Typically, this is a problem for young linemen who are below average performers, or aging linemen who are in the twilight of their careers.

    By way of comparison, Jackie Slater, Anthony Munoz, Jonathan Ogden and Walter Jones all have a scrimmage-line angle quotient of 20 degrees or less (as did Pace during the GSOT era) according to a major NFL stats research company.

    Given that the Rams have a long-time OL coach in Paul Boudreau, I think this problem is well known. I understand that Boudreau really wanted to trade up to get one of the top tackles in the draft, and would have taken OTs with the first two picks if he had his choice. You really have to take that type of opinion into account.

    Now, of course, most will say that hte defense is a greater priority, but there is no way this team can succeed with poor OT play. So, after the front 7, is addressed, the interior line is fixed, and the Rams get some young depth at WR, it is clear that the OT situation will need to be addressed.
    If you're going to say that the angle of a OT's inner foot has some kind of meaning then you need to be prepared to explain what that might be. Is the inner foot angled toward or away from the other foot? Who really has determined that this reduces an OT's blocking proficiency anyway? And if it is somehow significant, then don't tell me that a stance problem like this can't be corrected in practice. As for your comment about a "distinct reduction in blocking leverage" I fail to see how this would affect Pace's PASS blocking skills which has been his main calling card since entering the league. I think we can all agree that there have been better RUN blockers but very few in Orlando's class as far as pass blocking. Finally, if these are coach Boudreau's only OT problems, he should live so long!

    WHAT SAY YE?

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    I don't think that Pace is as good as he used to be or that Barron is as good as he could be. The offensive line allowed too many sacks last year, and that was largely the fault of our tackles. I don't know about their foot angles, but I think it would be fair to say that the OTs' play last year was one of the few areas on offense that really needs to be improved upon. I do have confidence that the guys we have now can improve on their own '06 performances, though.

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    I thought this was a spoof post on some of the comments from the safety discussion but are you actually serious about this???
    Just Fix It

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilXenu View Post
    I have spent a lot of time evaluating our tackles, and I really think that, though its not a priority, and there are a lot of things that need to be addressed first, that we're going to have to replace our tackles with some first-rate studs if we are going to be successful.

    LOL

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by rammiser View Post
    I thought this was a spoof post on some of the comments from the safety discussion
    That was my first thought when I read this also.
    BRUUUUUUUUCE


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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenfleece View Post
    I don't think that Pace is as good as he used to be or that Barron is as good as he could be. The offensive line allowed too many sacks last year, and that was largely the fault of our tackles. I don't know about their foot angles, but I think it would be fair to say that the OTs' play last year was one of the few areas on offense that really needs to be improved upon. I do have confidence that the guys we have now can improve on their own '06 performances, though.
    I wish there was a way we could break down the sacks.

    1. Tackles fault?
    2. Guards fault?
    3. Centers fault?
    4. RB/FB fault?
    5. QB held the ball longer than the play called for?

    Let's not forget we went from a flinging the ball all over the place and take our chances to (LINEHAN) protect the ball ....protect the ball...protect the ball.

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMarkable
    If you're going to say that the angle of a OT's inner foot has some kind of meaning then you need to be prepared to explain what that might be.
    That's a very fair question, RAMarkable. The answer is very simple. You've got to watch them play. Anyone who knows anything about the play of tackles will tell you that watching them play will tell you all you need to know. And when watching Pace and Barron it is obvious to those of us who know what we're talking about that they're nothing more than mediocre. In fact, I'd agree with Xenu and say after the skill positions and the rest of the line, they are the highest priority on offense.
    "I'm not going to hide my opinions. They're coming to you between 7000-4000 Angstroms for all the world to see. Oh yes, you will be enlightened."

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    No offense but that didn't explain anything either. If they're nothing more than O.K. why do they keep shutting down pass rushers? Please explain the footing for those of us who don't know what we're talking about.

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Look its pretty simple. Barron and Pace need to have SLAQ (scrimmage line angle quotient) numbers in the 20s, but they don’t. They take bad angles to D linemen. I have never seen anyone "fix" that kind of problem. Seems to me you either know what you're doing with that or you don't. Also, Barron IMO is not a true RT and belongs at LT. They need a real genuine stud RT in his place.

    Unless you can name a young OT who had a substandard SLAQ after 2 years in the league who then miraculously improved on that basic, fundamental skill his 3rd year, I would not expect too much from Barron this year.

    And I don't care if Barron is young. If he's mediocre, he's mediocre. There's no point in keeping him just cause he's a Ram and he's young. They need a real, genuine stud RT---not a "well wait and maybe he will improve" guy, a guy where we know from year one starting that he's a stud.

    As for me. I want a first-rate O line so I want first-rate OT, not ones that I see (for very good reasons) as mediocre to average at best. I want guys who actually DO get the job done, not guys who are defended by reputation-only arguments...the limitations of which I pointed out (and bear in mind that was not an argument against STATS, it was an argument saying that overall offensive stats are meaningless when you are trying to judge how good 2 OTs are on a bad OL...you need a lot more than overall offensive stats to make a case for them. For example, no one here yet has even tried to argue against the claim that if you watch Barron and Pace, it is apparent that they don’t have first-rate SLAQs.

    And I *do* have a clue what I am talking about when I talk about angular leverage factors. "Leverage" is just a word people use to describe how quickly and strongly a player can impose force upon an opposing player. Pace and Barron had problems with basic lining up issues that cause a lack of leverage. That's WHY they have bad SLAQs, and why that factor is so important, even if nobody else seems to know what I’m talking about.

    Disagree if you want but I've always looked for that kind of thing watching the game, from a long time ago.
    And you thought Mike Martz was "mad"!

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Interesting stuff, E.X. I'll have to go back to the game tape and really look at this issue.

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    Re: Tackle Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy G. Biv View Post
    That's a very fair question, RAMarkable. The answer is very simple. You've got to watch them play. Anyone who knows anything about the play of tackles will tell you that watching them play will tell you all you need to know. And when watching Pace and Barron it is obvious to those of us who know what we're talking about that they're nothing more than mediocre. In fact, I'd agree with Xenu and say after the skill positions and the rest of the line, they are the highest priority on offense.
    Apparently the coaches and FO were watching and signed Big O to a new contract a while back. As far as Barron goes, it doesn't matter which way his feet are pointed if he can't remember the snap count ...

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