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  1. #16
    tanus is offline Registered User
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    great points Avenger. I agree 100%. we don't know and never will probably.


  2. #17
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Oh boy. Another self-righteous rant from the perfect citizen himself.
    In all fairness, anyone who has never driven after drinking a few beers is entitled to be a little self-rightious in the context of this discussion.

    Plus, we still don't know the whole story.
    What we do know is despite being portrayed as cooperative and coherent at the scene, he refused to take a breath test. We also know he killed another human being as the result of drinking and driving, then made a conscious decision to drink and drive again. It's a questionable pattern of behavior IMO.

  3. #18
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    We also know he killed another human being as the result of drinking and driving
    Yes, drinking and driving with a BAC of .19, not after having two beers as he said he did in this instance - which no one can really dispute at this point, only question.

    I'm not saying it's fine for Little to go drinking and then get behind the wheel, but as long as his BAC is below the legal limit, it sounds like the law is.
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  4. #19
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    This conversation isn't really about what's legal and what isn't. It seems to me that if Leonard was a guy with the talent of Eric Crouch a lot of you wouldn't be so dismissive and accepting of his actions.

    Even within the context of this conversation the reasonable amount of beer one can drink is increasing. As far as 2 or 3 beers having no effect on your ability to drive I think you'd better check again. I know that since I don't usually drink, it only takes a single beer to start feeling it and I weight 250+. I'm not sloshed after one beer but the point is that alcohol's effects are very subjective.

    I'm not lobbying for prohibition either. I don't enjoy drinking but I really don't care if others do it. I don't care if they smoke pot, shoot heroin or snort cocaine either but don't tell me that it's okay for Leonard Little to knock back a couple (wink, wink. Really, officer I only had two) and go speeding down the expressway. He's already proven that he doesn't have the good sense to know when not to drive.

    I find it sad that some of you are arguing that what he did wasn't so bad, because basically everybody does it. If you really think that's the case then maybe you should look in a mirror too. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but don't try and tell me it's okay to drink and drive.

  5. #20
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Mok, I don't know if you have an inherent desire to cause discussions to escalate into heated battles, or if you just are too lazy to read what other people are writing.

    Let's review:

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    This conversation isn't really about what's legal and what isn't. It seems to me that if Leonard was a guy with the talent of Eric Crouch a lot of you wouldn't be so dismissive and accepting of his actions.
    As many of us have said, the only reason we care about Leonard Little is because he is the starting defensive end of the Rams. That does not mean anyone is being "dismissive" or "accepting" of his actions. It merely means that we are happy he'll be able to suit up come September. And, you're right, if it were Eric Crouch, nobody would care.

    Even within the context of this conversation the reasonable amount of beer one can drink is increasing. As far as 2 or 3 beers having no effect on your ability to drive I think you'd better check again. I know that since I don't usually drink, it only takes a single beer to start feeling it and I weight 250+. I'm not sloshed after one beer but the point is that alcohol's effects are very subjective.
    There is no doubt that alcohol effects different people differently. Intoxication is also a function of time. I would submit that nobody here is advocating chugging two or three beers, waiting for them to "kick in" and then jumping behind the wheel. But, the truth is, there are plenty of people who can drink a beer or two over a few hours at dinner or a bar, wait an hour, and be perfectly able to drive home without impairment (actual or legal). And I say this as a 163 lb. man who is not one who can do so (and, consequently, I never have more than a single glass of wine when I'm driving).

    I'm not lobbying for prohibition either. I don't enjoy drinking but I really don't care if others do it. I don't care if they smoke pot, shoot heroin or snort cocaine either but don't tell me that it's okay for Leonard Little to knock back a couple (wink, wink. Really, officer I only had two) and go speeding down the expressway. He's already proven that he doesn't have the good sense to know when not to drive.
    First of all, what gives you the right to decide that Little actually had more than two beers? I'd prefer to trust the legal system on that issue. As for "good sense," one could argue that driving more than 10 miles per hour over the speed limit is indicative of a lack of "good sense." I suppose you've never done that either. But, again, people - whether they are Joe Shmoe or an NFL player - don't typically go to jail for merely failing to exercise "good sense."

    I find it sad that some of you are arguing that what he did wasn't so bad, because basically everybody does it. If you really think that's the case then maybe you should look in a mirror too. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but don't try and tell me it's okay to drink and drive.
    Wow! Here's where you really go overboard. Who is arguing that it is okay to drink and drive? Some people have acknowledged that they, on occasion, have a beer or two when they're out, but nobody is saying its okay to drive while impaired.

    The truth is, all that we know that Little did was (1) have a couple of beers, (2) get into a car at some later point in the evening/early morning, and (3) drive above the speed limit. We also know that he did so notwithstanding his previous conviction.

    Foolish? Yes.

    Irresponsible? Yes.

    Criminal (beyond the speeding infraction)? No.

    A good reason to dislike Little? Sure.

    A reason to put him in prison? No.

    Something that should be of continuing concern to Ram fans? No (other than the concern that it could happen again, and the hope that it won't).

  6. #21
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    This conversation isn't really about what's legal and what isn't.
    Of course it isn't, because the law doesn't support your opinion.

    Regardless, if a US court finds Little not guilty of drunken driving, as it has, then that's good enough for me. Doesn't matter if it's Little or Chris Massey or, as you phrased it, a guy with the talent of Eric Crouch.

    I find it amusing, though, how you've shifted your tactics to apparently trying to show that we posters are shallow by assuming we'd be crucifying a less talented player in this situation. Not quite as classy as how your first appearance in this thread, though, but still a notable tactic nonetheless.



    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    but don't tell me that it's okay for Leonard Little to knock back a couple (wink, wink. Really, officer I only had two) and go speeding down the expressway.
    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but don't try and tell me it's okay to drink and drive.
    Like it or not, I believe that's what state law is telling you.

    In fact, a man weighing 260 pounds would have to put back more than six 12oz beers in one hour before his BAC would be above the legal limit (see: Insure.com). And even if you doubt that Little's two beer theory is true, you have no reason to believe he was legally drunk - you're just assuming he was without knowing anything about this situation.

    I'm certainly not advocating that people go out and drink six beers in an hour and then get on the road, but I don't believe people should be prohibited from having a drink or two and driving home, so long as their BAC remains under the legal limit, which I'm assuming was determined and established with public safety in mind, if not as the first priority.

    As I said before, if you don't think a driver should be able to consume any alcohol at all before getting behind the wheel, take it up with your elected officials. If you're as worried as you seem to be about drivers being impaired, why don't you try campaigning against another impairment to drivers - cellphones. After all, University of Utah psychology professor David Strayer did research in 2003 (fifth paragraph) that suggests drivers who talk on cell phones are more impaired than drivers with blood-alcohol levels exceeding 0.08. Again, let me know how your lobbying goes; I'll be anxious to hear what kind of proactive results you've been able to achieve because of your concerns.

    Otherwise, I don't see what else you can do besides accept the law for what it is. And yes, as much as you'd like to try to deny it, this is very much a legal matter.
    Last edited by Nick; -04-03-2005 at 07:37 PM.
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  7. #22
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    I wonder how Mok would feel if a player he really liked were stopped for driving in an hazardous manner. Like, what if, for example, a press release had been issued reading as follows:

    Following comments made by Kurt Warner at a recent press conference, a Sergeant with Iowa State Patrol informed his commanders he was in fact the officer that had stopped Mr. Warner earlier this year. On March 23, 2000 Sergeant Randy Jones of the Iowa State Patrol stopped a vehicle northbound on Highway 218 in Henry County. The driver of the vehicle was Kurt Warner. Mr. Warner was traveling 74 m.p.h. in the 55 m.p.h. zone. Sergeant Jones learned Mr. Warner and his family were on their way to participate in a benefit in the Cedar Falls area and chose to issue a warning for the speeding violation. While Troopers may exercise discretion in issuing enforcement action, it is not the policy of the Iowa State Patrol to issue a warning for speeding at nineteen m.p.h. over the posted speed limit. The Iowa State Patrol will conduct an internal investigation to ensure Sergeant Jones did not violate any rules or regulations of the Department of Public Safety. The results of the investigation will be considered a personnel matter and remain confidential.

  8. #23
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    This conversation isn't really about what's legal and what isn't.
    No it is not about what is legal or not. It seems to be about what is acceptable to people.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I don't care if they smoke pot, shoot heroin or snort cocaine either but don't tell me that it's okay for Leonard Little to knock back a couple (wink, wink. Really, officer I only had two) and go speeding down the expressway.
    So is your issue with drinking and driving, or speeding, or not knowing when or how to drive?

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I find it sad that some of you are arguing that what he did wasn't so bad, because basically everybody does it. If you really think that's the case then maybe you should look in a mirror too. I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but don't try and tell me it's okay to drink and drive.
    I ride a motorcycle moklerman. I understand the risks associated with speed, with bad drivers, and with poor conditions. There are no safety belts on a motorcycle; there is no steel cage to protect.

    The real problem here is putting a heavy piece of machinery into motion and controlling that piece of machinery. Alcohol is just one thing that results in poor driving and impairment of reactions and judgment. There are plenty of other behaviors or conditions that result in poor control of a vehicle. Perhaps you should focus your concern on better driving skills. Many people can drive in an acceptable manner after a couple of drinks. It is a judgement call and the law allows for some use of judgement in this area.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    As for "good sense," one could argue that driving more than 10 miles per hour over the speed limit is indicative of a lack of "good sense."
    oh no....perhaps I lack good sense. :upset:
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  9. #24
    r8rh8rmike's Avatar
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    I wonder how Mok would feel if a player he really liked were stopped for driving in an hazardous manner. Like, what if, for example, a press release had been issued reading as follows:

    Following comments made by Kurt Warner at a recent press conference, a Sergeant with Iowa State Patrol informed his commanders he was in fact the officer that had stopped Mr. Warner earlier this year. On March 23, 2000 Sergeant Randy Jones of the Iowa State Patrol stopped a vehicle northbound on Highway 218 in Henry County. The driver of the vehicle was Kurt Warner. Mr. Warner was traveling 74 m.p.h. in the 55 m.p.h. zone. Sergeant Jones learned Mr. Warner and his family were on their way to participate in a benefit in the Cedar Falls area and chose to issue a warning for the speeding violation. While Troopers may exercise discretion in issuing enforcement action, it is not the policy of the Iowa State Patrol to issue a warning for speeding at nineteen m.p.h. over the posted speed limit. The Iowa State Patrol will conduct an internal investigation to ensure Sergeant Jones did not violate any rules or regulations of the Department of Public Safety. The results of the investigation will be considered a personnel matter and remain confidential.
    Wow Av, you've got some dossier on Warner! For you to pull this out, it must be thick. Leave it to you to somehow work Warner into a lively thread. He must be your white whale.

    At least you've proven we're all human and capable of questionable judgement, Kurt Warner included. LOL

  10. #25
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    If you're as worried as you seem to be about drivers being impaired, why don't you try campaigning against another impairment to drivers - cellphones. After all, University of Utah psychology professor David Strayer did research in 2003 (fifth paragraph) that suggests drivers who talk on cell phones are more impaired than drivers with blood-alcohol levels exceeding 0.08.
    Good point Nick. People talking on cellphones while driving bothers me a lot. There are so many people that drive and talk and they don't do a very good job of driving.
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  11. #26
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    Wow Av, you've got some dossier on Warner! For you to pull this out, it must be thick. Leave it to you to somehow work Warner into a lively thread. He must be your white whale.

    At least you've proven we're all human and capable of questionable judgement, Kurt Warner included. LOL
    Actually, I got the impression that Av made up that scenario to see what Mok's response would be to this happening to his favorite player, since Mok suggested we're more accepting of Little's situation because of his talent, and wouldn't be as welcoming if he wasn't as talented. The phrase "what if" seemed to stand out in my mind as making this a hypothetical, but if it's not, I stand corrected.
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  12. #27
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Actually, I got the impression that Av made up that scenario to see what Mok's response would be to this happening to his favorite player, since Mok suggested we're more accepting of Little's situation because of his talent, and wouldn't be as welcoming if he wasn't as talented. The phrase "what if" seemed to stand out in my mind as making this a hypothetical, but if it's not, I stand corrected.
    I'm just playing along!

  13. #28
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    I'm just playing along!
    Well, color me "fooled!" :redface:
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  14. #29
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Notwithstanding the stench of how it all went down, the one thing that I don't understand about the prosecutions case is why they were only able to get a speeding violation out of this? If I remember correctly (and I am relatively sure about this) Leonard Little was on a BAC tolerance scale of zero. Certainly the admission of two beers slams the door on zero tolerance doesn't it? Even though at this time in my life I have come to realize that I cannot stand to be around most drunks I'm glad our forefathers decided that it's better to let a guilty man go free then to jail an innocent man. Then again our constitution has its flaws as in the Terri Schiavo murder case.

  15. #30
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    Re: And that's why your innocient until proven guilty

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    Well, color me "fooled!" :redface:
    I must admit Nick that I wasn't sure either way, but I can't resist having a little fun with Av every once and a while. If he did make it up, I hereby cast my vote for worlds greatest "Balderdash" player to the master himself, Av. If it's a true account, never mind about the "Balderdash" stuff.

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