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  1. #16
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    That's what is cool about different viewpoints. You see this a blatant slam to Warner, I see it more of a description of Bulger. I can sort of see your point, but I more than sort of don't. Which is cool, at least you gave me a different way to look at the article.


  2. #17
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    People will see whatever they are predisposed to see ... but there is no point in changing it or resisting it ... for as Oscar Wilder has said ...

    "The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for things it has forbidden to itself."

  3. #18
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Bulger doesn't seem to be that type of guy but he's not fan friendly either. And defending Bulger by assoiciating him with Randy Moss is hilarious to me. Why not just go all the way and say he was playing golf with O.J., so he must be a great guy.
    What I talked about was an event where both Bulger and Moss among other WV athletes came and signed autographs for kids -- a specific event that shows him as being receptive to the fans, contrary to your insinuations. Rather than accept that and add an understanding of that event to your position, you slam it because it's with Randy Moss and don't even acknowledge it as you continue on your rhetoric. So what's the point in even trying to mount a defense here when you'll just ignore the points being made?

    You ask when was the last time a player commented about how many autographs he was going to sign, and I counter by asking when was the last time a player who was replacing a huge fan favorite was asked a question about if he was going to sign autographs like Warner did? Doesn't happen too often, and again, it seemed like all Bulger was saying was that he preferred to just do his share like the rest of the team. That sounds fine and dandy to me.

    So like I said originally, people who want to see something negative will see just that. Adarian probably phrased it better by saying people will see whatever they are predisposed to see. For you Mok, who have been critical of Bulger as a player, Martz as a coach, and the way Bulger has been portrayed in the media, it'll always be negative to you. I don't think anyone's saying you have to interpret what they meant, you just don't understand what the reporter was asking, or that Martz or Bulger were "forced" into answering because they were on the spot. That's not the case at all. We're just saying we simply don't see it as you do with this negative undertone incorporated. You interpret us one way, we interpret it another. Neither of us can claim absolute correctness, but frankly I'm tempted to give Marc the benefit of the doubt for anything that sounds questionable, as I'm sure you did for Warner when some of his comments have stirred the pot.
    Last edited by Nick; -08-02-2004 at 06:41 PM.
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  4. #19
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    I can maybe give the benefit of the doubt to Bulger because he’s relatively inexperienced in dealing with this type of media frenzy and these questions are shot at him with little time to react.

    Martz on the other hand, with statements like: "Football's his passion, it's pretty much his life right now, and he's not interested in anything else. He's squared away. He doesn't need those things. And I think that's the attraction of Marc to this football team. He's just one of the guys.”, followed up by "Ultimately, that's what a football team wants. They don't want somebody that they can't relate to.", was in my opinion unwise, uncalled for and a negative reference to Warner.

  5. #20
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by adarian_too
    "The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for things it has forbidden to itself."
    Hmmm? Very interesting......

    Does this mean I should take up gambling again?

    Where is the number to that palladium broker?



    :ramlogo:

  6. #21
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to ignore ALL the things that have happened. Any one or two of them could be discounted but when you put it all together it doesn't paint a positive picture.

    I take into account all the information as a whole to form the opinion that I have. There's plenty of stuff to form a case against Bulger and Martz but why bother? No matter how damning it might be some will never think ill of Martz or Bulger as long as they're on the Rams.

    As far as Bulger going home to West Virginia to sign autographs for kids that's commendable. It's not too hard to play devil's advocate though since I don't have all the information. Like, did he get paid to do it? Doesn't he already live in West Virginia? It doesn't seem like much of an effort to show up for something where you live. All the athletes that go over to the middle east to support our troops are a little more deserving of praise.

    I admit I don't have an objective viewpoint about Martz and Bulger but I also recognize this and have tried to base my comments on actual quotes and performances. Some who disagree with me don't seem to have this same kind of recognition. I don't blame someone for being a fan or supporter of someone, but to deny that support seems wrong to me. I realize my feelings might distort my viewpoint so I try and use black and white material. Of course, I've never accused someone of being wrong just because they have an apparent love of the coach and/or qb.

    There are at least a couple of other people on this board who share my opinion about some, if not all of the quotes in this article. I agree that the quotes might be misinterpreted if you haven't been a Rams fan for more than 6 months but I don't think they are too hard to understand if you've been following what's been going on the past two years. I get accused of taking the quotes out of context yet the quotes are defended based on a total disregard for everything that's happened to this point. If I was the only person defending my point of view it might be acceptable to accuse of me of fighting a crusade against the Rams, armed with exaggerations, misinterpretations and fabrications. However, I'm not the only one out there that see's the things that I see.

  7. #22
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    As far as Bulger going home to West Virginia to sign autographs for kids that's commendable. It's not too hard to play devil's advocate though since I don't have all the information. Like, did he get paid to do it? Doesn't he already live in West Virginia? It doesn't seem like much of an effort to show up for something where you live. All the athletes that go over to the middle east to support our troops are a little more deserving of praise.
    He doesn't live in West Virginia. Read the article, Mok...

    "When he wasn't working out at Rams Park during the offseason, Bulger was back home in Pittsburgh..."

    Heck, you didn't even have to leave the thread to find out where he lived.


    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    I admit I don't have an objective viewpoint about Martz and Bulger but I also recognize this and have tried to base my comments on actual quotes
    Actually, it sounds to me as if you're basing your comments on your interpretation of actual quotes, not the quotes themselves. Since you admit to not having an objective viewpoint, of course that interpretation is going to be negative. As Adarian said, people will see what they want to see. You see negativety and Warner bashing, I see discussion with no intended shot at Kurt. It's hard to say what the true intent was without being Marc Bulger or Mike Martz themselves, but personally, I'm going to give our guys the benefit of the doubt, just as I did Warner whenever he made some ill-advised comments. I don't see any reason to get upset over something like this, but if you want to, well, I guess it won't affect me so why should I care?
    Last edited by Nick; -08-03-2004 at 12:50 AM.
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  8. #23
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    I don't know WHY you care, but you obviously do. Again, you try and say that the quotes weren't directed or about Warner but that simply isn't the case. Again you say I'm "interpreting" the quotes wrong when I'm not trying to interpret at all. I'm going by what was actually said. You're interpreting and giving benefit of the doubt in regards to what they "meant".

    I knew Bulger was from Pittsburgh but I didn't realize he still lived there. I have no real idea where he lives and admitted that. That's why I asked the question but I guess I should be scolded for not memorizing all of Bulger's personal information. You didn't answer the other question though-did he get PAID for his "charitble" autograph signing? If he did that sort of throws the argument out the window.

    And on top of all that, I never said that he never signed autographs. I criticized him for his choice of words on the subject as well as pointing out that he wasn't nearly as accessible as Warner when it came to signing. Bulger's the one who opened the door to Warner comparisons, I'm just giving my opinion.

    Part of my opinion is based on personal accounts from people on a variety of message boards too. Including preseason and regular season accounts I've read a majority of negative observations in regards to Bulger. He seems to be perceived as aloof and disinterested in fan interaction. Those are opinions from people who were at the games so I give them more credit in being able to see how things might actually be. An article from a beat writer isn't always full of useful information in that regard.

  9. #24
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    You make a comment about him not being a QB for the fans, despite the fact that Bulger joined Randy Moss in Charleston, WV, to sign autographs for children at a local event. Were you aware of that? Probably not, since you came to the conclusion that Marc doesn't go out of his way for the fans based on one debatable quote.
    Just out of curiosity I plugged in Pittsburgh to Charleston at Mapquest.com. This is assuming that Bulger made a special trip from home to the event which is something else we don't know. But it was 227 miles. That doesn't seem like too great of a distance. Not enough to praise him for going out of his way. But it's cool if he went and signed (for free) to try and bring joy to some kids. Anything that athletes might do out of the goodness of their hearts is a pleasant contrast to most stories we hear about them. I'm still curious about more details of this event if Randy Moss was there.

    I still think you're at least a little biased for Bulger since he has ties to West Virginia. I mean, you seem to keep awful close track of his exploits for someone who claims to defend him only because he's the starter for the Rams. Which is perfectly alright. I'm loud and proud of my support of Warner. I just don't know why you try and deny your fandom of Bulger if you are. Maybe you don't realize that you are. I don't know, but if you take a look at all the defense and support you've given him over the past few months I'd be curious to see who you actually CLAIM to be a fan of. I'm picturing shrines and survelliance photos and locks of hair of whichever player that might be.

  10. #25
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    here's how I look at the whole thing.....if Bulger improves like Martz thinks he can, there will only be a very few of us who really care what comes out of anyone's mouth on the Rams team.

    I don't care what any of them say. They could say the sky is pink and I'd shrug it off. Just win. That's all I care about. That puts me in a minority also. I really don't have the time or the care to dissect what is said in the media. All of these guys are professional athletes in a cutthroat business. Not a sport, a business.

  11. #26
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan
    I don't care what any of them say. They could say the sky is pink and I'd shrug it off. Just win. That's all I care about. That puts me in a minority also. I really don't have the time or the care to dissect what is said in the media. All of these guys are professional athletes in a cutthroat business. Not a sport, a business.

    How much value do you want to attach to what people say and what are your priorities in interpreting what they have said? Let me bore you one more time as you continue to go round and around trying to extract meaning from the way sports writers or athletes use language ...



    Quote Originally Posted by Honeycutt
    In the nineteenth century, hermeneutics built up a rich tradition of works by such thinkers as Shleiermacher, Humboldt, and Dilthey, who, though they varied in their ideas about hermeneutic understanding, generally agreed on the general process of interpretation, sometimes known as the "hermeneutical circle." This interpretative process involved examining a certain text or event through a systematic investigation of general[itie]s and particulars, the results of which, in turn, are related to what is already known by the interpreter. This process continues around in a circle, moving from one subprocess to another, until the interpreter is convinced of a satisfactory interpretation.

    The post-modern problem with all this, of course, is how does one determine when one has ridden this merry-go-round long enough? The hermeneutic circle, for me, is about as confusing as the 'QB debates in ClanRam'. You drive around and around until dizzy, looking for what looks like the correct path to take, and when you reach an epiphanal moment of disorientation, you simply pull into a gas station and ask for directions. The answer to this problem, for most hermeneutical thinkers of this period, was that you never drive out of the circle. The process, from an historical perspective, never ends. You can never get back to the Interstate, not if construction of a foundational epistemology is your destination. Dialogue, for me, however, allows us to ride this carnival ride together, eternally stuck in 'ClanRam' looking for our own destinations.
    http://www.public.iastate.edu/~honey...meneutics.html


    Now that should be a thread killer ...

  12. #27
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    I place no value on what anyone says. Period.

    How's that?

  13. #28
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan
    I place no value on what anyone says. Period.

    Not even in yourself?

  14. #29
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    I mean this stuff. I mean coach speak. I mean media speak. Wow, let's dissect the dissection shall we?

    None of us really know what goes on behind the locker room door. That's where stuff is really said. Not what Martz may say to Fox Sports one day, or what Bulger said to ESPN.

    Case in point....Texas lost to Fullerton in the NCAA World Series Final. Auggie Gaurido is the most respected college baseball coach around. The NCAA told Auggie that the second place trophy presentation was optional. Then, Auggie gets just about castrated on the national scene for not accepting the trophy. When the truth comes out, do any of the talking heads retract what they said? No.

    Media speak is about as reliable as the Globe, Star, and Enquirer all wrapped up into one.

    I'll take some of that back though. There are three people I trust when it comes to the Rams, only because I've met them and trust them.

    Howard Balzer
    Barry Waller
    Bernie M.

    Anyone else, it's just mindless dribble.

  15. #30
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan
    I mean this stuff. I mean coach speak. I mean media speak. Wow, let's dissect the dissection shall we?

    I'm just hassling you Tx. I know what you mean. I agree with you ... for the most part it is "mindless dribble." Really ... I thought I had simply injected some inane dribble myself just to say "dialogue, for me, however, allows us to ride this carnival ride together, eternally stuck in 'ClanRam' looking for our own destinations."

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