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  1. #31
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Hey, here's an idea. Since a) Nick & Mok are interested in this subject, b) this board was designed for discussion of the Rams, and c) anyone not interested can go to another thread, how's about we let Nick & Mok carry on with their debate? Just an option.

    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  2. #32
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Oh, don't worry bison.....nothing short of a nuclear war would stop those two from going at it.....and honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way.



  3. #33
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Mok, you say that I tried to say the quotes weren't about Warner. Incorrect. I never said that these quotes weren't related to Warner. In fact, I said in my fourth response that these quotes were about differences in Bulger from Warner. If you're going to make up my position for me, I'll just not respond and let you argue both sides.

    If you can't see that you're intepreting the meaning behind these statements, there's no point trying to debate with you. I can't believe someone would think these quotes are crystal clear and need no interpretation. If you want to see a shot at a player that needs no interpretation, read Terrell Owen's comments on Jeff Garcia. If you want to see a shot at a player that needs no interpretation, read Ray Lewis's reaction to Owens not signing with the Eagles. This is NOT a set of no interpretation quotes, Mok. To think so is ridiculous.

    Regarding whether or not Bulger got paid, I didn't answer the other question because I don't know the answer. No article I've read has said whether or not the athletes were paid to appear. I'm tempted to believe they were not, but that's just a guess. If you have any information about whether or not he got paid for his appearance, please provide it. I know of none.

    In terms of who opened the door for these comparisons, I believe it would be the press opening the door for comparisons by following up on these kind of stories, not Bulger himself. Or are you telling me the media-shy Bulger sought out reporters so he could talk to them about how much he was different than Kurt?

    Regarding reports of Marc being disinterested in fan interaction, what about HUBison's account of him signing every autograph? For someone disinterested in fan interaction, it sures seems like he's doing a pretty good job of interacting with the fans, what with signing autographs after practice and going to offseason events to appear for kids. Perhaps during games, prior or post, he's not interested because he's concentrating on the matter at hand? I mean, we are talking about a guy that's going to work and trying to secure a job here. Maybe, just maybe, he was concentrating on that instead of the fans? He's certainly shown thus far in the offseason that he's receptive to them, and it doesn't sound too out of the question to assume a player may be thinking more about the game during gametime than how he treats the fans.

    I never claimed it was a great distance from Pittsburgh to Charleston, but it is a pretty involved trip. Take it from someone who's done it. Over three hours from where I live, which is closer to Charleston than Pittsburgh is. All that should be important is that he made the trip for a fan event. Your insinuations based on this quote that he's not a fan friendly QB is properly challenged by something like this. Just because he didn't go to Iraq doesn't mean this isn't a notable appearance.

    But I like how first, the event doesn't count because it's with Randy Moss. Then, the event doesn't count because he lives in West Virginia. Then, the event doesn't count because maybe he doesn't live in WV, but it's not a great distance out of his way. How many more excuses can you make, Mok, to downplay the impact of something like this? Yes, you gave him some commendation for what he's done, and I applaud that. But every step of the way, you've made excuses as to why this shouldn't be considered a big deal or something worth altering your opinion on. Something smells fishy here...

    You say I'm a little biased for Bulger, and I agree with that. In another thread, I told Mike that I showed Bulger slight favoritism, but I did not believe that favoritism made me illogical or biased to the point of not being able to criticize him. For the record though, most of the articles I get about Bulger are from various general NFL news sites or are e-mailed to me from the Rampagers list. When I see a thread about Bulger, I look into it and respond, just as I look into other threads and respond. I'm not a part of some Bulger fan club which supplies Bulger-only information on his exploits -- I don't go out of my way to seek out every single bit of information about Bulger, at least not to a greater extent than I do a number of other Rams players -- nor do I have any Bulger memorabilia in my apartment outside the three jerseys I own -- I also own three Warner jerseys and soon three Faulk jerseys. I don't deny that I'm a Marc Bulger fan, just like I don't deny that I'm a Kurt Warner, Torry Holt, or Marshall Faulk fan.

    What I do deny is that my personal affiliation with the team and players causes an unfair or illogical bias in my opinions. Yes, I'm giving Marc the benefit of the doubt here with these comments because I'm hoping and assuming they weren't meant in ill-will, just as I gave Kurt Warner the benefit of the doubt when his statements about the team and religion were made public (which required much less interpretation, let me add), just as I'm giving Leonard Little the benefit of the doubt until he's proven guilty, despite most evidence making it seem like his is an open and shut case. If you'd take a look at other outlets for which I talk about the Rams, I'm currently engrossed in a very heated defense of the Rams linebackers on a general NFL discussion page. I can provide you with a link if you'd like to take a look, but the point is Bulger isn't the only Ram I make a point to defend.

    The bottom line is I like Bulger just as I like any Ram, and while I may be slightly more interested and supportive of him because of his past affiliation with my college, I don't think that pushes me into a huge bias, certainly not a bias large enough to say that no interpretation is needed to understand what these comments were saying when there clearly is. I'm tempted to defend Bulger partially because of his history, but I won't defend him against things I feel he's clearly at fault for -- I've criticized him for a number of his behaviors this past year, including his deep ball (although I still believe that the running game had an effect on this, a belief that was actually supported by a recent article), his checkdowns, his holding onto the ball too long at times, and specifically the third and final interception in the Carolina contest. These criticisms have all been separate from my defense arguments, meaning I've gone out of my way to make a note of some of his shortcomings in other threads. I guess my point is it's hard for me to believe that I'm overly biased toward Bulger when I make it a point to separately address his negatives and his negatives alone when topics involving criticism appear, rather than just slip in a negative in the middle of a large rant about how great he is. I've made it a point to be both critical and supportive of him, and I stand by a belief that my opinions are generally unbiased on this matter.
    Last edited by Nick; -08-03-2004 at 02:21 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    In terms of who opened the door for these comparisons, I believe it would be the press opening the door for comparisons by following up on these kind of stories, not Bulger himself. Or are you telling me the media-shy Bulger sought out reporters so he could talk to them about how much he was different than Kurt?
    I'm not going to keep reposting the same quotes over and over but Bulger made the comparison. He didn't have a special press conference to release a statement about it but he still made the comparison. Was it a direct answer to a loaded question? We don't know that do we? I'm not assuming anything one way or the other, just commenting on the actual quote. When you add them all up and look at the whole article as well as take into account everything that's happened up 'til now, it forms a picture of how these guys might think. I don't KNOW what they're thinking but based on everything that's gone on I have formed my opinion.

    Regarding reports of Marc being disinterested in fan interaction, what about HUBison's account of him signing every autograph?
    What about it? I said that there were people on both sides of the fence but that the MAJORITY of what I"VE read painted a certain type of picture. I never said that's how it definitely is.

    I never claimed it was a great distance from Pittsburgh to Charleston, but it is a pretty involved trip. Take it from someone who's done it. Over three hours from where I live, which is closer to Charleston than Pittsburgh is. All that should be important is that he made the trip for a fan event. Your insinuations based on this quote that he's not a fan friendly QB is properly challenged by something like this. Just because he didn't go to Iraq doesn't mean this isn't a notable appearance.
    It probably is involved if you're a regular joe, but I think millionaires with VIP treatment might have a little bit easier time. But we don't know how he got there do we? We don't know if he actually travelled specifically for the event. The fact that Randy Moss was there makes me think that it might have been a paid appearence. But we don't know. All we know is that a couple of sports figures signed some autographs at an organized appearance. One that was covered by the press. There are plenty of question marks in my mind as to the altruistic actions by Bulger and Moss in this case. But I'll say it again for those who missed it: it's great that he did it if it was for free. I don't give any sports stars credit for being charitable when it's actually just a "photo-op".

    You say I'm a little biased for Bulger, and I agree with that.
    So you follow Bulger just a "little" more than, say...Brandon Manumalenu? I think you try to portray your interest in Bulger as not much greater than anyone else because you're worried it will discredit you in some way. I've got news for you, you're a Bulger FAN. You stick up for him and it pisses you off when someone talks bad about him. Come out of the closet and be proud.

    I'm not a Bulger fan. The sad part is it has very little to do with anything Bulger's actually done. It's all of the other b.s. that's been shoveled trying to prop him up and in a roundabout way, denounce Warner in the process.

    Bulger may not have mentioned Warner by name but c'mon, who do we suppose that he was talking about when Bulger said that he had his own card and he wasn't going to do the table thing? Granted, on it's own that statement isn't telling but when it's followed up with I'll sign my share but I'm not going to go looking or anything, it sounds pretty crappy.

    Just like I criticized Warner for being too loose lipped with the press I'm criticizing Bulger for the same thing. I think his statements WERE honest and I think they were critical statements of Warner. Maybe everyone on the team thought the same way. Maybe they all thoght he was a glory-hound, brown-noser for signing so many autographs. The difference is, Bulger is the guy who was GIVEN Warner's job, without a competition, and he's the one making public statements.

    What I do deny is that my personal affiliation with the team and players causes an unfair or illogical bias in my opinions.
    I think your actions may contradict that statement. Nice words, but clearly your support of Bulger is above and beyond a passing interest. Where's the defense of Brandon M.? I've seen a lot of people bad mouth him. Or Bobby April? He was one of the coaches on a winning team. I haven't seen a lot of effort put into opening people's eyes as to the other side of the coin in their cases.

    The bottom line is I like Bulger just as I like any Ram, and while I may be slightly more interested and supportive of him because of his past affiliation with my college, I don't think that pushes me into a huge bias, certainly not a bias large enough to say that no interpretation is needed to understand what these comments were saying when there clearly is.
    Again, we have to interpret what Bulger and/or Martz "means" when they say something stupid. How can you be doing all of this interpreting and still say that Martz and Bulger weren't talking about Warner? The whole article was laced with comparisons of the two qb's. Did the reporter have an agenda? Probably. Did he ask loaded questions? A reporter do something like that? Nahhhhh. Did Martz and Bulger take the bait? I think so. They made comments that are debatable to say the least. Your boy Bulger stuck his foot in his mouth, plain and simple. Now proclaim allegiance to your fellow Mountaineer and be proud.

    If I defended Jim Everett all those years you can support Bulger.

  5. #35
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    Nice lengthy response, Mok. Based on our history, this could go on like this for ages, and since I'm on vacation, I'd prefer to not be involved. So all I can say is I continue to stand by what I've said in my posts and what Adarian said: people will see what they're predisposed to see. You're predisposed to see things like this negatively, and I'm predisposed to see it as fine. You have your opinion, and I have mine. It would seem once again we'll have to leave it at that.

    Oh, and the next time a Brandon Manumaleuna debate comes up and I perceive that he's being treated unfairly, I'll be sure to step in. Haven't quite seen one of those yet, but I'll keep my eye out just for you, mmkay? :redface:
    Last edited by Nick; -08-03-2004 at 08:00 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Re: There's no marked change in Marc Bulger

    There haven't been any Brandon Manumaleuna debates because everyone is in agreement that he sucks. I seem to remember some head scratching going on about the size of his contract and the fact that he was re-signed at all.

    The main thing is, we don't have to listen to endless accolades being given about BM. He was a middle of the road TE that wasn't that good at blocking. End of story. Marc Bulger on the other hand...well, these messages are limited to 20,000 words or so so I can't list all of the great things about Bulger. I mean, he must be great since we've been told that umpteen times now. Kind of an excessive amount of praise for a qb that's never won a playoff game.

    Bulger-Backers will just never understand what the argument is really about.

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