Tight end, the red zone and vernon davis

[general counsel]

Why do people conclude that the absence of a better tight end gave us problems in the red zone the last couple of years? I dont follow the logic. Throwing to the tight end was not a material part of martz offense. The assumption that we didnt throw to the tight end in the red zone or anywhere else for that matter because manu wasnt a superstar like vernon davis has the potential to be is faulty reasoning to me.

Linehan apparantly likes to use the tight end more than martz did. Great. Thus, the tight end will be more a part of the rams offense and presumably, more of a target in the red zone.

I just dont see the logic in assuming that manu is no good. I am not suggesting that he is as good as vernon davis. But, remember, the only contribution davis can make is the incremental upgrade over what we currently have or can draft in a later round. In addition, we have plenty of other red zone weapons.

How many reliable tacklers do we have. How did we do stopping the run? How were our ball skills in the secondary?

This is about the rams winning and losing, not having an incremental weapon in the red zone. Sure more scoring is better and red zone performance is an important component to winning (I am one of the biggest proponents of that), i just dont think that given the talent we have on offense, we need to use the #11 pick to improve our red zone play.

The comparison to heath miller doesnt make sense for me. Miller was not the #11 pick in the draft. The key for me isnt davis, he isnt the issue. Its that we are drafting in a position to get an impact player on defense and the rams can be impacted overall as a team a lot more at this point by preventing points than by adding an incremental weapon for red zone performance.

ramming speed to all

general counsel
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[psycho9985]

I sure as heck hope that linehan has some deep pass plays in his westcoast.I cant stand that dink and dunk crap.Stretch out the field and let it fly.I dont want to see it take 97 plays to score.
The most painful version of the westcoast was Gruden's Raiders.If somebody could find a stat. on what team has the most plays during a season,it will be a westcoast offence.Gruden's Raiders probably broke a record.

[Varg6]

It's really hard to say at this point I think. Unfortunately, there's not enough time to choose wheither to take vernon davis or not first pick, but it really depends on whom on Defense we'll still have and who will step it up. I think we SHOULD keep archy, and I think Pickett and Little will step it up, if we get more D players to step it up that's already on the team, then I think we should definitely pick up Vernon, because I think no matter where you are, if you're on your 1 or on their 1, either which way, vernon will always be a threat on offense, I also think Steven Jackson will be a huge factor to the offense, because we've all read it and heard it, that we WILL have a balanced offense, so I think we'll be good with rushing now anyways, the defense, is a big deal, but I think there's so many players known and unknown that we can draft later on, I think we should get vernon as quickly as possible

[MauiRam]

Good points GC! After reading that Linehan was able to lure Haslett to St Louis with the promise of better players through the draft and free agency, it appeared that the chances of the Rams drafting V. Davis were very slim. Obviously the Rams need more of an infusion of talent on defense. I totally agree that the lack of production at the TE position was more due to the design of Martz's offense than lack of talent, but I am still less than enthralled with Manu's play. It would be nice to see a Ram TE play with a mean attitude (ala J. Shockey) instead of appearing soft. However your point about preventing points helping the Rams to win is well taken. Hopefully Haslett will get the players he wants and needs to turn around our porous D!

[ramhard]

One other point, while Davis may be the best of the bunch, there are several quality TE's this year - the best crop in years... a good one can be had in the 2nd or 3rd (my preference) round.

[general counsel]

Just so i dont get hung on this later, i am not suggesting that manu is going to be an all pro or that i think he is terrific. I am only suggesting that the evidence to this point on his play is inconclusive and given that he is under contract with that cap number and our other needs, i think we are much better off to go defense.

Last analogy. Drafting a tight end at #11 to upgrade our offense, bulgers safety valves and our play in the red zone, given the current quality of our defense, is the equivalent of a doctor showing up at the scene of a serious accident and trying to fix a broken wrist while the patient is gushing blood out of his neck. If we dont stop the bleeding coming out of our neck (ie our worst in the nfl defense) then the condition of our wrist (ie the tight end spot) isnt going to change the net result of the patients condition. IE, we can be dead with vernon davis and an improved red zone offense if we can stop anybody.

ramming speed to all

general counsel

[psycho9985]

You never know what will happen.Big Manu just might thrive under Linehan,Martz didnt give him the opportunities other teams give a tightend.Although hes not an Ernie Conwell i'd still like to see what he can do at tightend,and not being experimented at fullback,O-line,or linebacker.Heck he might be a good linebacker.

[Rambos]

Last analogy. Drafting a tight end at #11 to upgrade our offense, bulgers safety valves and our play in the red zone, given the current quality of our defense, is the equivalent of a doctor showing up at the scene of a serious accident and trying to fix a broken wrist while the patient is gushing blood out of his neck. If we dont stop the bleeding coming out of our neck (ie our worst in the nfl defense) then the condition of our wrist (ie the tight end spot) isnt going to change the net result of the patients condition. IE, we can be dead with vernon davis and an improved red zone offense if we can stop anybody.

That’s one-way to look at it, here’s another, I say taking Davis is more like adding a stop sign to the road where the accident happen avoiding the car crash in the first place. Moving the ball at will and not getting 7 hurts just as bad as holding a team on the ground and then giving up a few big plays. We played from behind most of the season, partly because Marc was out too many games, adding and playing solid TE could help avoid so many shots.
When you look at our D, I would say it’s not as bad as it played last year. We had a lot of injuries Butler, Arch, and Little not hurt but missed games, Fisher. Our scheme was a big part of it along with the FO and Martz getting sick. On the other hand the O is not as good as it once was, we did not put up points early when we had opportunities to take control of a games. And again injuries Holt, Bruce, Marc all miss time which cost.

That being said I hope we get Huff or a impact player in D. If we take Davis and huff and Green ect. Are gone I can live with the pick. But if we pass on a defensive player that is a big time player, that would be sad.

[Goldenfleece]

I'm generally pretty keen on having a good talent at TE, but a superb tight end isn't going to make near as much difference to this team as a defensive player of anywhere near the same talent. Besides, I think Linehan has done pretty well even when his tight end wasn't an incredible talent. Kleinsasser was more of a blocker but still put up okay numbers, and I don't think Jermaine Wiggins has particularly exciting speed--he's just big and has good hands. Wiggins started 11 games in 2003 for the Panthers and had 8 receptions for 80 yards. He went to the Vikings and his numbers went to 71 for 705 yards. I think we'll be fine with Manu or a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

[bigredman]

Davis, Davis, Davis! Come on guys. Our defense and interior offensive line need attention. I don't subscribe to this notion of getting the best athlete on the board mentality. Could we use an upgrade at TE? Sure, but not using our first round pick.

[talkstoangels61]

Originally Posted by bigredman

Davis, Davis, Davis! Come on guys. Our defense and interior offensive line need attention. I don't subscribe to this notion of getting the best athlete on the board mentality. Could we use an upgrade at TE? Sure, but not using our first round pick.

Been trying to tell them that both our lines need to be upgraded for the last 2 years and if the new coaches do not see this they are as blind as MM was. I dont care if we had KW or peyton right now neither one would last the season or be successful with our line playing the way it has!

[Varg6]

exactly, is davis bad at blocking or something? Tightends can be used for blocking... an extra that you know has enormous talent at the positon (which goes out for passes AND blocks) is worthy of being on the team...

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Varg6

exactly, is davis bad at blocking or something?

I certainly wouldn't consider it one of his strengths, but he's a physically strong player who is adequate blocking in the run game, moreso at the second level than on the line.

[Fat Pang]

I'm a big fan of having quality at the TE position. I also believe that not utilising the position as often as we should have done caused us problems in the end zone because opposing coordinators, once they'd gotten over the shock of the first couple of years of the GSOT, adjusted pretty well.

I don't want to teach anybody's grandmother to suck eggs here but in my opinion the logic for TE could go like this:-

It's hard to use empty backfields and 4 receiver sets when you only have 30 yards to play with and a much more crowded field. Why stick on the nickel and Dime packages when you can leave a couple more LB's on the field because you don't have to worry about the deep ball?. Keep them in the middle of the field and tell them to smack those small, quick receivers about.

If the Rams went two TE's? Big deal, no great quality there in the playaction and they were known for whiffing on their blocks.

A good TE can help you here.

Manu however, is deserving of another chance in a system that gives him more of a chance to make plays. If we want to take another TE, Davis would be great, a great luxury.There would seem to be enough quality around at TE to wait until round 3 maybe 4 even.

Defence first I reckon. LB or S is fine by me. Let's fix that and at worst give Manu another shot.

We still ranked pretty high in yards and points scored without Davis, Pope or Lewis so I have hopes we can be competitive if the D can show up.