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  1. #16
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    These people that are complaining need to take a little time to understand. If they had opened it up from day one, and Bradford had 25 INT's right now, what would our record be?
    Whats worse what level would Sam's confidence be at? How many times have we seen rookie QBs come into the league flying high out of college join a mediocre team, get destroyed the first year + throw 20-25 INTs and they are one and done. The teams have to suffer and payout those ridiculous contracts after that and be a year behind.


  2. #17
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    We lack depth
    We have a defensive minded Head Coach
    Turnovers are bad


    Spags is the quintessential Defensive minded head coach. I have been on the fence about him since he was hired, primarily because I was unsure if he could rally a team, a full team, since he had never done that in the NFL. I always looked to him as the mainstay of the conservatism displayed, primarily for the reasons listed above. I think it was correctly stated that Shurmer and essentially any OC in the league would do some pretty creative things if given full rein. Given the success acheived this year, I am in his corner and too can wait to see how this plays out. I am excited about a defense that will be feared SOON throughout league, woth an offense that is disciplined and productive.

  3. #18
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    I don't even believe Spags on this one. This smells too much like a good leader taking blame for his subordinates shortcomings. The same as giving credit to others when his team is winning. "SHORT"!
    "The disappointment of losing is huge!"

    Jack Youngblood

  4. #19
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonJoe View Post
    I don't even believe Spags on this one. This smells too much like a good leader taking blame for his subordinates shortcomings. The same as giving credit to others when his team is winning. "SHORT"!
    Hi MoonJoe,

    I thpught about that as well but I think it is Spags given his conservative nature but you could very well be right

  5. #20
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by thermobee View Post
    Whats worse what level would Sam's confidence be at? How many times have we seen rookie QBs come into the league flying high out of college join a mediocre team, get destroyed the first year + throw 20-25 INTs and they are one and done. The teams have to suffer and payout those ridiculous contracts after that and be a year behind.
    Didn't see you there, JaMarcus Russell!

  6. #21
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post

    Any REAL head coach is THE boss man.
    But don't those guys end up wrecking their franchises in some incredibly stupid power struggle over parking spaces?

  7. #22
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    Right now, Spags has a very firm grasp on the players that he has. We have some nice players on this squad, but we lack depth all around. So what is the easiest way to remain in games when you are outmatched? Simple. Don't turnover the football ...

    Young QB, young WR's, questionable offensive line. If you open up the offense too much, the QB is going to get killed, because as the risk level of the plays increase, so does the complexity, and intricracies that are required to be successful ...
    I agree with most of what you're saying, but as I see it, the problem isn't so much a lack of depth but a lack of satisfactory starters at a number of positions which is forcing the depth guys into the starting line-up.

    To get back to the main point though, I agree that Shurmur is simply running the offense Spags wants him to run. The offensive philosophy starts at the top with Spags' vision. I just hope that vision isn't adverse to making some talent upgrades and then opening things up more when the talent improves.

  8. #23
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    I agree with those who think that what is seen as overly-conservative is often more a lack of execution by The Rams. Bradford and SJ's numbers dip dramatically in the second half & it ain't even close to always being the playcall,imo.They've taken shots & missed & you simply must be able to run with a lead,no matter how wacky you get at times. Even Mad Mike knew that.

    That doesn't mean I don't get frustrated with stuff like no Darby & too little of SJ in the pass game, especially since I know that's part of the Philly O on which Shurmur/Spags offense is at least partially based.

    And Nick is spot-on,imo;, you have to acknowledge that there is no Celek or Carlson at TE which takes away a big part of what the WCO does to open up the pass game. And we all know about the shaky WR situation, the surprisingly inconsistent OL work, etc,etc.

  9. #24
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    I think Shurmur may be operating on a vision, but he has play-to-play responsibility. As Spags said himself, he rarely even knows whats going to happening on the other side of the ball.

    The playcalling has been terrible at times this season and we need to hang that on someone. I never thought Shurmur had complete autonomy, but he deserves both credit and blame when things go right and wrong. I really like his creativity at times and the way he has slowly ushered in Bradford, but it seems like during some drives someone hit him with an idiot stick. Maybe that is Spags "making a call", maybe not. If that is Spags, that is a little worrying. An OC is much more expendable the a HC.

    It is premature to absolve anyone of responsibility or blame. Stupid decisions, such as the drive after the long kickoff return, have real consequences and require real accountability. Maybe the Rams are being given a pass because they are better than most expected, but that seems like a lame excuse for poor coaching decisions.

    I, for one, just call it like I see it. Starting a thread in an attempt to shutdown a certain type of discussion seems counterproductive to me.

  10. #25
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by swatter555 View Post
    I think Shurmur may be operating on a vision, but he has play-to-play responsibility. As Spags said himself, he rarely even knows whats going to happening on the other side of the ball.

    The playcalling has been terrible at times this season and we need to hang that on someone. I never thought Shurmur had complete autonomy, but he deserves both credit and blame when things go right and wrong. I really like his creativity at times and the way he has slowly ushered in Bradford, but it seems like during some drives someone hit him with an idiot stick. Maybe that is Spags "making a call", maybe not. If that is Spags, that is a little worrying. An OC is much more expendable the a HC.

    It is premature to absolve anyone of responsibility or blame. Stupid decisions, such as the drive after the long kickoff return, have real consequences and require real accountability. Maybe the Rams are being given a pass because they are better than most expected, but that seems like a lame excuse for poor coaching decisions.

    I, for one, just call it like I see it. Starting a thread in an attempt to shutdown a certain type of discussion seems counterproductive to me.
    Not to attack you, my friend, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why label the run calls after the return "stupid' when The Rams had scored on a run from the same distance earlier in the game? The failure to score a TD was lousy execution but at least, imo, smart because it used up clock, protected the ball & the scoring opportunity against a pretty good defense. Conservative, yes, but not stupid to me.

    I don't think anyone disputes that there have been some mystifying decisions regarding timeouts, active/inactive personnel & their level of participation for certain games,etc. Pretty traditional fan gripes,though,imo, & far outnumbered by surprisingly good moves. I guess I'm just a glass half full of kool-aid guy at the moment, thinking how far this organization has come.

  11. #26
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Not to attack you, my friend, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why label the run calls after the return "stupid' when The Rams had scored on a run from the same distance earlier in the game? The failure to score a TD was lousy execution but at least, imo, smart because it used up clock, protected the ball & the scoring opportunity against a pretty good defense. Conservative, yes, but not stupid to me.

    I don't think anyone disputes that there have been some mystifying decisions regarding timeouts, active/inactive personnel & their level of participation for certain games,etc. Pretty traditional fan gripes,though,imo, & far outnumbered by surprisingly good moves. I guess I'm just a glass half full of kool-aid guy at the moment, thinking how far this organization has come.
    they scored from the 1, not the 12.

  12. #27
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by thickandthin View Post
    they scored from the 1, not the 12.
    Quibble away...lol...but if they'd executed any one of those failed runs from the twelve as well as the TD from the one, they'd have been much more likely to score. Don't forget they'd had a sack/fumble & failed to throw it in on another drive.They're trying a lot of stuff & surely SJ has to be in the mix,no? Sam's TD pass to Laurent was a ballsy thing of beauty but high risk & I think The Rams are smart to protect Sam from his own fearlessness at times. I'm sure he'd keep on slinging, heedless of the INTs like Peyton was, but I don't know that they'd win more that way.

    I still think you have to be able to run the ball in the RZ,whether from the one inch line or 19th & 99/100ths yard line.And although The Whiners have been stout vs the run, you can't say Willis & Spikes weren't vulnerable with those hand injuries; SJ started off strong & looked to be taking advantage of it then...Stuffsville, USA . No, I stick on my original opinion; nothing stupid about The Rams strategy there, just poor blocking.

  13. #28
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Azul e Oro View Post
    Quibble away...lol...but if they'd executed any one of those failed runs from the twelve as well as the TD from the one, they'd have been much more likely to score. Don't forget they'd had a sack/fumble & failed to throw it in on another drive.They're trying a lot of stuff & surely SJ has to be in the mix,no? Sam's TD pass to Laurent was a ballsy thing of beauty but high risk & I think The Rams are smart to protect Sam from his own fearlessness at times. I'm sure he'd keep on slinging, heedless of the INTs like Peyton was, but I don't know that they'd win more that way.

    I still think you have to be able to run the ball in the RZ,whether from the one inch line or 19th & 99/100ths yard line.And although The Whiners have been stout vs the run, you can't say Willis & Spikes weren't vulnerable with those hand injuries; SJ started off strong & looked to be taking advantage of it then...Stuffsville, USA . No, I stick on my original opinion; nothing stupid about The Rams strategy there, just poor blocking.
    I agree very very poor run blocking... I just don't see why Spags doesn't give Greco a shot.. I mean he is a much better Run Blocker than Goldberg (from what I've seen this season). and even though Goldberg is a better finesse pass blocker.. Greco can't be THAT bad at pass blocking...

  14. #29
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by thickandthin View Post
    I agree very very poor run blocking... I just don't see why Spags doesn't give Greco a shot.. I mean he is a much better Run Blocker than Goldberg (from what I've seen this season). and even though Goldberg is a better finesse pass blocker.. Greco can't be THAT bad at pass blocking...
    Maybe he is, I dunno. He's not getting much time on the field this season, so we don't have a lot we can point to to say one way or the other. Spags and company see him on the practice field, so I'd hope they're in a better position to make a more accurate decision on this one.



    Anyways, I think we need to get used to the idea that Spagnuolo is a defensive coach who believes in minimizing risk, grinding it out with the lead, and playing tough defense. While the Rams might start to open things up more once they get some more talent, I'm not sure Spags is going to completely abandon this philosophy. With better talent in some key areas, and the development of our younger talent, it can be successful. It already has been successful at times this season.

    But that doesn't mean there haven't been some head scratchers in terms of playcalling. I do agree that there have been instances when the team is too conservative with the lead, allowing their opponents to come back into the game and win it. This coaching staff needs to find the right balance, because in some games, it looks like the Rams get the lead and then proceed to just try to run the clock out.

    You can't just blame it all on one thing, coaching or players. It's probably a combination of both. You can't just throw all the blame at the OC's feet, especially when the overall philosophy is coming from the guy above him. Until the talent improves, the execution of that vision will probably be inconsistent. But that doesn't mean the coaches are absolved of any criticism in the meantime.
    Last edited by Nick; -12-28-2010 at 01:46 PM.

  15. #30
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    Re: Time to shut up about Shurmur and his "conservatism" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    Seriously? Those types don't survive in this league ...

    Any REAL head coach is THE boss man.
    I agree. If Spags told Shurmur to keep it conservative and Shurmur ignored him, he probably wouldn't be with the team much longer. Same as if any of the rest of us ignored what our direct supervisors told us to do on a big project.

    I hope they do open the offense up a little more next season, though. We've had several games lost at the end that might have been won if we hadn't let up on offense in the second half.

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