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  1. #151
    atcchris's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    laramfanlongtime

    If you are talking about the initial benching I agree Warner was given a raw deal. After last year though I think it was time to move on for the Rams. I think Bulger earned his role with solid play last year. he made some mistakes but I really think they were mistakes I had seen Warner have too. They both like to force balls when rushed. I think bulger has calmed down though and has looked great this year. The main difference to me is the ability to hold on to the ball when tackled. I know Warner only gave up 4 but he is very lucky since he fumble what was it 14 or 12. As far as the Touchdowns, well Like I said Warner had the luxury of a good offensive line and alot more toys. I have always agreed Warner got a raw deal but I do think the Rams turned out better for it, its a hard knocks life you know.
    Thanks again for your thoughts.. Sadly enough, I believe you're right about Warner getting a raw deal and Bulger showing enough to earn a starting job somewhere. That's what I believe is Martz' problem. He could have put Warner back in before the Arizona game, and then Bulger doesn't get the taste that makes him mad for starting. Is Bulger good enough to start? Certainly. Is he good enough to run GSOT? NO. Was Warner after the Giants game? I believe so.. but WE'LL NEVER KNOW... THANKS MARTZ!!!

    In any event, I think your read is right, mostly, although I will point out all the fumbles Bulger has had, and lost... when a guy is getting swarmed, he's going to fumble. Someone's going to reach out and tip the ball when you have it in your passing hand going through progressions. It happens with a porous line. And I also disagree that Warner's line in 1999-2000-2001 was always a great pass blocking line. He didn't have days back there.. he's a quick reader, and he threw many times on the run, after evading rushers. I will agree that the quality of the line was much better back then... but, then again, we go back to Martz' drafts and curious allocation of resources (IE, Canidate, et al) to see how we eroded without rebuilding. Maybe Martz needs to add to his genius by taking a Corps of Engineers course or something.

    As for the Rams turning out better for it? That's only speculation. Since Martz' neglect of Warner, we've had, what.. 1 playoff game, and it was 1 and out at Carolina.. and Bulger WAS exposed that game.

    ramdez

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by atcchris
    Then tell me this.

    What WILL it take for you to get off the Martz bandwagon?

    Maybe two losing seasons in a row is what it takes for you. For me.. having hopscotch years of losing seasons peppered with seasons where we SHOULD have had a losing record, if not save for the overacheiving defensive takeaway specialists and kicker.. that's more than enough. Of course it was enough when the idiot kicked Warner to the curb starting in 2003. The rest is simply further evidence that MARTZ MUST GO!!!

    Thats just plain silly.

    So what your saying is that you would prefer 5 solid years instead of a coach who rebuilds a team?
    I don't see what you're asking. If we don't need rebuilding, I prefer 5 years of contending for championships. If we need rebuilding, I prefer to rebuild RIGHT instead of THINKING we're "almost there" and making it 5 pathetic years... and MY 5 years start in 2002. The "this is MY team, not Warner's team" years. 7-9, 12-5 (smoke and mirrors), 6-8.. probably 6-10.. and then what? What rocky movie was that.. "What's your prediction for the fight?" "PAIN".

    Clearly we're in need of rebuilding. We can let ourselves languish for a couple more years until we realize it.. or we can take care of it now and minimize the pain.

    THAT'S my point. We're beynod the point of no return here. If Martz had not gone down this path, maybe things would be different. But he did, and we're here. 6-8. As Chevy Chase said in caddyshack.. "you're not... good.."

    We're NOT "good". Do we fool ourselves or get to work?

    I say get to work.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by atcchris

    One way or another, one of us will be shown to be foolish in their assessment. Will it be the one who denigrates the ONLY QB to ever bring home a Lombardi Trophy for our Team? Or will it be the one who denigrates the ONLY COACH who ever wasted such an array of talent as we had assembled.

    I guess we'll see.

    (BTW.. your boy Bulger... how long can he take the pounding dished out due to Martz' lack of vision in his player movements? Will his injuries compound and lead to poor performance... and another QB career kicked to the curb? Stay tuned.)
    What a load of crock. I can not believe that posters allowed you to get away with this drivel without a comeback.

    the ONLY COACH?????? yea right, I won t even bother to list the others. The ONLY COACH!!
    Well.. I would like to know what other Rams coach ever HAD such an array of talent at his disposal. It would be interesting to note. Maybe back in the Van Brocklin days... but we won back then, didn't we? Knox never did this, did he? Malavasi? Robinson? You could maybe argue that.. but I don't think he had as much talent all around. Brooks? LOL.. he was just a waste. No. I think I will stick with my statement. Martz is the ONLY COACH who ever wasted such an array of talent... lol.. and, yes.. WARNER is STILL the ONLY QB to ever take us to the Super Bowl. And some fans want to erase his memory from the team.. He's nothing more than just a GIANT now. What utter CR*P!!!!

    And this statement just shows why you are NOT a Ram FAN "BTW.. your boy Bulger... "
    Is he your boy or not? You're touting him, aren't you? I don't see him as the solution. He might be a good starter, but that's all you want?

    Hey, your opinion.

    It's MY opinion that THIS:

    that simply show that you are sitting on the wings, reveling in how the Rams are performing and are longing for that washed up Kurt to come riding into town in his big white steade to save the day. Hear this. It aint happening so it might be time for you to ride of and follow him at whatever team he ends up..... cause he sure aint playing football in the NFL just now ...... is he
    Shows that you are no RAMS fan. The players listed below.. ALL OF THEM, deserve status as RAMS FOREVER. Why? They did it on the field. They earned the trophy for us. How many are still with us? Not many.. but you deny Dre Bly Ramdom? Fletcher? Wistrom? Hakim? Proehl? Horne? Conwell? ANd on and on? Just because they are elsewhere? Then FIE on you, bud. I'll name WARNER whenever I darn well please. He served the RAMS well, and he will always be part of RAM LORE, no matter how much it CHAPS YOUR BUTT!

    WORLD CHAMPION RAMS - 1999

    No. Name Hometown PO. HT. WT.
    2 Mike Horan Long Beach State P 5-11 192
    9 Joe Germaine Ohio State QB 6-0 203
    10 Trent Green Indiana QB 6-3 215
    11 Rick Tuten Florida State P 6-2 221
    13 Kurt Warner Northern Iowa QB 6-2 220
    14 Jeff Wilkins Youngstown State K 6-2 205
    16 Paul Justin Arizona State QB 6-4 211
    20 Taje Allen Texas CB 5-10 185
    21 Dexter McCleon Clemson CB 5-10 195
    22 Billy Jenkins Howard S 5-10 205
    23 Devin Bush Florida State DB 6-0 210
    24 Ron Carpenter Miami, Ohio S 6-1 188
    25 Robert Holcombe Illinois RB 5-11 220
    28 Marshall Faulk San Diego State RB 5-10 211
    31 Amp Lee Florida State RB 5-11 200
    32 Dre Bly North Carolina CB 5-9 185
    35 Keith Lyle Virginia S 6-2 210
    36 Justin Watson San Diego State RB 6-0 225
    38 Rich Coady Texas A&M SS 6-0 203
    41 Todd Lyght Notre Dame CB 6-0 190
    42 James Hodgins San Jose State RB 5-11 230
    45 Jeff Robinson Idaho DE 6-4 275
    50 Ryan Tucker Texas Christian C 6-5 305
    51 Lorenzo Styles Ohio State LB 6-1 245
    52 Mike A Jones Missouri LB 6-1 240
    54 Todd F. Collins Carson-Newman LB 6-2 248
    56 Charlie Clemons Georgia LB 6-2 255
    57 Leonard Little Tennessee LB 6-3 237
    58 Mike Morton North Carolina LB 6-4 235
    59 London Fletcher John Carroll LB 5-10 241
    60 Mike Gruttadauria Central Florida C 6-3 297
    61 Tom Nutten Western Michigan C 6-5 300
    62 Adam Timmerman South Dakota State OL 6-4 300
    63 John Flannery Syracuse C 6-4 295
    64 Andy McCollum Toledo OL 6-4 295
    70 Willie Jones Grambling State T 6-6 372
    71 Cameron Spikes Texas A&M G 6-2 310
    72 Bobby Singh Portland State G 6-2 316
    73 Fred Miller Baylor T 6-7 315
    75 D'marco Farr Washington DT 6-1 280
    76 Orlando Pace Ohio State T 6-7 320
    77 Matt Willig USC T 6-7 315
    79 Todd Frohbieter Arkansas State T 6-6 328
    80 Isaac Bruce Memphis WR 6-0 188
    81 Az-zahir Hakim San Diego State WR 5-10 178
    82 Tony Horne Clemson WR 5-9 173
    83 Chris Thomas Cal Poly SLO WR 6-2 190
    84 Ernie Conwell Washington TE 6-1 265
    86 Roland Williams Syracuse TE 6-5 269
    87 Ricky Proehl Wake Forest WR 6-0 190
    88 Torry Holt North Carolina State WR 6-0 190
    90 Jeff Zgonina Purdue DT 6-2 300
    91 Troy Pelshak North Carolina A&T LB 6-2 242
    92 Lionel Barnes Northeast Louisiana DT 6-4 264
    93 Kevin Carter Florida DE 6-5 280
    94 Gaylon Hyder Texas Christian DT 6-5 290
    95 Nate Hobgood-Chittick North Carolina DT 6-3 290
    96 Jay Williams Wake Forest DE 6-3 280
    98 Grant Wistrom Nebraska DE 6-4 267
    99 Ray Agnew North Carolina State DT 6-3 285


    Oh, so maybe the Giants will now come under your one tracked argument as well now. Yea, I see it now ............. the RAMS AND THE GIANTS were wrong to get rid of Warner .......... then you could expant it to the Rams and the Giants and the ......... fill in the blank.
    Well, I believe that most of the NFL will agree that the Giants blew it big-time by going with Manning when they did. But.. I don't hold it against them, because I don't give a FLIP about the Giants... and Warner never won a Super Bowl for THEM. (and mark my words.. Bulger never will for us, either. NOR will Martz. That's a prediction, not a hope)


  2. #152
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Marc Bulger can run the GSOT offense. That's why, even with an in-decline version of Marshall Faulk, a rotating swiss cheese offensive line, no Hakim or Proehl, and no receiving TE, Bulger still, at the time he was injured, was leading the NFL in passing yards.


    Its ironic - of all of the GSOT pieces Martz has changed, Bulger is probably the one who proved to be the best substitute for the original.

    Martz's problem is that he was unable or unwilling to find adequate replacements for other key components:

    LG: Tom Nutten (in his prime) - replaced with out-of-position McCollum, Dishman, out-of-retirement Nutten and a parade of horribles.

    RT: Fred Miller/Ryan Tucker - replaced with John "Turnstile" St. Clair, Kyle "one-and-done" Turley, Grant "subliminal hatred for own QB" Williams, and another parade of horribles.

    TE: Ernie Conwell - replaced with Brandon "I can't believe they matched Carolina's offer sheet" Manumaleuna.

    WR (3 and 4): Proehl and Hakim - replaced with Troy "can't grasp the offense" Edwards, Terrence "can't spell own name" Wilkins, Dane "plucky but slow" Looker, Mike "thankful to have a job" Furrey, before finally developing Curtis and McDonald.

    ...and most importantly:

    RB: Marshall Faulk (the best player in the league from 1999-2001) - replaced with gimpy-aging Faulk, Trung "can't carry the ball 5 times without fumbling or getting injured" Canidate, Lamar "did the Dolphins really give us a high #3 for this China doll" Gordon, and Steven "why won't he let me play" Jackson.

  3. #153
    atcchris's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Marc Bulger can run the GSOT offense. That's why, even with an in-decline version of Marshall Faulk, a rotating swiss cheese offensive line, no Hakim or Proehl, and no receiving TE, Bulger still, at the time he was injured, was leading the NFL in passing yards.
    LOL. Also doing pretty well with the picks, eh? Sorry.. you can't run GSOT without taking care of the ball. Yes.. it's high risk, and you're going to have them, but not to the extent that Bulger has. He had 22 picks last year, and 12 so far this year. That's not going to get it done. Especially when he only had 22 TDs last year.. so far this year, 17. Blame it on everything else? Whatever. We've seen Bulger play. You can't quantify in numbers the lack of "what it takes" to run this offense. You only see the results of it... The exposure at carolina last year.. the train wreck of this season.

    Its ironic - of all of the GSOT pieces Martz has changed, Bulger is probably the one who proved to be the best substitute for the original.
    Guess what? Measuring how close the replacements came to the original against each other doesn't tell you anything!!! So what if Bulger comes closest. I said he's a good QB. He is. He's just not a great one. And that's what GSOT takes.

    Wholeheartedly agree with your assessments on the replacements. Noting that WR (3-4) producting is directly tied to the ability of a QB to read down the progression that far. Could it be that Bulger's getting better, thus the 3-4 are looking hopeful now? Maybe. I just don't see the spark there. There is OBVIOUSLY no danger from all quarters in our offense at this time. It's not one player's fault. But Bulger is not Emmitt Smith's "Diamond in the Cow patties" by a long shot.

  4. #154
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Also doing pretty well with the picks, eh? Sorry.. you can't run GSOT without taking care of the ball. Yes.. it's high risk, and you're going to have them, but not to the extent that Bulger has.
    In Mike Martz offense (1999-2004):

    Games started:

    Warner: 50
    Bulger: 34

    Interceptions:

    Warner: 65
    Bulger: 40

    Interceptions/game started:

    Warner: 1.30
    Bulger: 1.17

  5. #155
    AvengerRam's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Here's a novel thought...


    Anyone want to actually discuss Mike Martz?

  6. #156
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    Here's a novel thought...


    Anyone want to actually discuss Mike Martz?
    OK, can anyone explain to me the post Arizona meltdown Martz comments:

    "It's kind of neat, actually", describing our current situation in the division chase, or the equally rediculous "Whether Marshall loses four yards or Steven loses four yards, which one you want?", explaining why Jackson did not play.

    It's kind of scary, actually.

  7. #157
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    It's called Martz being sarcastic and knowing that this O line can't get the job done. Period.

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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    correct. Matz talk does not come over very well in print. You have to watch him as a lot of times he says things while at the same time rolling his eyes etc. But then some people would take that as a sign or something L O L


  9. #159
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Sarcasm huh? After what happened in Arizona? Way too flippant if you ask me.

  10. #160
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    There ought to be a law against threads getting this long. Assuming one is inticed by the title, doesn't discount the initiator of the thread, how could anyone do justice to wading through something from start to finish and making sense of it all? Tracy Lords knows I tried.

    Should have been a poll. NOW does sMartz STILL have your unflinching support? Yes or No. Sure made for an interesting revisit of his confounding endearments. That lovable old ogre sure has a lot of you fooled. He knows better than to peak at the wrong time. He has lulled everyone to sleep with a devious and crafty plan to win that absolutlely last, at the very end last, win, to get into the playoffs. What a momentum swing he is just ready to capitalize on. After 14 games, he still has a chance to lead the Rams into the playoffs yet again. A lot of 90s teams faded a lot sooner. His hasn't. Halleluyah.

  11. #161
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Well, seeing how he can't win with 80 percent of the Rams fans anyway, I like that he just says screw it. If he says it non-flippant, then fans go off and say he's given up. If he says things flippant, then he dosen't care.

    So why should he care what we as fans think? We crucify Martz and his system brought us a Super Bowl victory and a Super Bowl appearance. Every team has down years, heck the Patriots didn't even make the playoffs the year after they beat us. Did they throw Billy B to the wolves? Nope. Injuries have killed the team this year. Lack of turnovers, even though there have been ample opportunites, have placed the Rams in precarious situations.

    Some of what Martz has done is self inflicted, I'll give you that. However, everything the man does or has done for the Rams is torn apart like an old rag.

    You want to hate Martz, fine. Your business. However, he's back for at least one more year. If he turns this squad around like he has done before, awww nevermind. Most of you won't give him a break anyway so what's the use.

    Crucify on.

  12. #162
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Where did you get the idea I hate Martz? Pretty big assumption on your part. I actually like Martz the man, but I do hate what he is doing to the team. After the game he called in Arizona and the bizarre comments he made afterword, he deserves to be cricified a little. Were you unflinching Martz supporters comfortable with his actions and decisions in that humiliating loss?

  13. #163
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Happy Holidays everyone.

  14. #164
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    In Mike Martz offense (1999-2004):

    Games started:

    Warner: 50
    Bulger: 34

    Interceptions:

    Warner: 65
    Bulger: 40

    Interceptions/game started:

    Warner: 1.30
    Bulger: 1.17
    Blah blah blah blah FLOOFA blah.

    Call me when Bulger gets us the trophy.

    I'll be waiting.

  15. #165
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan
    Happy Holidays everyone.
    I take it that's a no. Happy Holidays.

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