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  1. #121
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    By this rationale, if the first pass is incomplete then you might as well quit passing.
    No, that's not that rationale at all. Martz didn't quit on the run after the first attempt.


  2. #122
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by NickSeiler
    And my point is sometimes even the best of coaches are unable to do that based upon what they're working with. Therefore, it's not always an issue of coaching.
    OK, I guess my point is there are coaches in the NFL who despite adversity, can still manage to win and be successful, Martz isn't one of them.

  3. #123
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    If you don't like the stew chef analogy, here's a post I made way back in August. Seems I anticipated some of the issues we're looking at today (I've just lost my optimism when it comes to Martz):

    There are two types of coaches. There are architects and there are sculptors.

    Architects start with a detailed plan and then try to built a team that fits that plan. It could be a "pound-it-out" ground game plan, a West Coast offense, a "run and shoot" or any other type of plan for success. The positive side of a good "architect," is that when they get the right players in place, a good plan can be hard to beat. The downside is that it is often hard to get (and to keep healthy) the right type of players, and when players that fit the plan are absent, the architect coach can have trouble adjusting and may stubbornly try to keep with the plan despite the missing pieces.

    Sculptors start with the building blocks of a team (the "clay," if you will), and then mold it into a finished product. The result is often dictacted, not by a plan, but rather by the nature of the materials. This is the type of coach that is often described as "getting the most of his players," and having a team of "overachievers." The truth is, its not a matter of overachieving, its playing to the strengths of individuals. The positive side of the sculptor is his flexibility and ability to turn a team around quickly. The downside is that there are true few sculptors and too many coaches who think they are, but are not.

    There have been successful architects. Bill Walsh may be the best example, as he built a team with the West Coast offense blueprint to perfection. Another was Jimmy Johnson, who built a team in Dallas with his blueprint and then failed to do the same in Miami because he lacked the right players (mainly the lack of a Emmitt Smith type back).

    There have also been great sculptors. Don Shula comes to mind, as he used the ground game in the 70s when he had Czonka, Kiick and Morris, then became a "passing coach" when he had Dan Marino. Parcells may be the consummate sculptor given his success with several teams (though some might argue he is really an architect with a one word blueprint: toughness).

    So where does Mike Martz fit in here?

    Clearly, he is an architect. He can sit in an office and devise an offense that, when properly staffed, can be nearly unstoppable. But his flexibility and ability to adjust when he has to deviate from the blueprint is questionable.

    Being the eternal optimist that I am, I hope he will improve in this capacity.

    I hope he will see the merit of using a grind-it-out offense at times now that he has a big bruising back in Steven Jackson. I hope he will allow the defensive coaches to deviate from the Cover 2 when necessary. I hope he will learn that the answer to an ineffective passing game on a given Sunday is not always "pass more."

    If Martz the architect can become a bit more of a sculptor, he could be a great coach.

  4. #124
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike
    OK, I guess my point is there are coaches in the NFL who despite adversity, can still manage to win and be successful, Martz isn't one of them.
    This is true, although I wonder if some of those coaches are starting not-that-great street free agent quarterbacks and third or fourth options on their offensive line. But I see your point.

  5. #125
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Clearly, he is an architect. He can sit in an office and devise an offense that, when properly staffed, can be nearly unstoppable. But his flexibility and ability to adjust when he has to deviate from the blueprint is questionable.
    This may be the most intelligent thing you've ever said Av.

  6. #126
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote:
    Clearly, he is an architect. He can sit in an office and devise an offense that, when properly staffed, can be nearly unstoppable. But his flexibility and ability to adjust when he has to deviate from the blueprint is questionable.


    This may be the most intelligent thing you've ever said Av.
    /Agree

    Also want to point out that his judgement as to when to deviate and when not to deviate is highly suspect.

  7. #127
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Thanks. I only wish he had proven me wrong.

  8. #128
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam
    I only wish he had proven me wrong.
    In that we agree 100%.

  9. #129
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Because it is the BEST example of Martz' Hubris costing us our dynasty.

    ATC:stating that losing warner is the best example of Martz' mishaps


    I forgot that Martz went and broke Kurts hand with a hammer when he was sleeping. Injuries happen to older Qb's who get a late chance that is football. What is also football is tough decisions. There is not one coach in this league that would trade or bench a young QB who took his team to the playoffs with a first round bye so the salty veteran who has had reoccuring problems as a result of injuries could start. Football does not work that way sorry ATC.

    Now you want to talk trash on Martz lets talk about the real issues. LACK OF CHANGE is the biggest problem. I do not see him do anything to try and fix a problem. When this team is down he very rarely seems to change things up to get the team back on track. Things stay the same. Right now this team needs a kick in the pants and quickly. Playoffs are not really something I look foward too. I really doubt, after what should have been the easiest of the last three games turning into an emberassing loss that this team could pull the tie and win the divison. We will see though.

    The team should definatly have exploited the weak run defence like every other coach would have done. I also see Marmie blitz then decide to stop blitzing. "Hmm it worked good but now I dont want to do it again." Stick with what works. Martz needs to control his guy a little. I am not saying he calls the play's I am saying he needs to just suggest to Marmie that maybe things do not look good lets try something else. The thing is he is so arrogant in his decision making that he is afraid to admit fault. Telling Marmie he is screwing up means that maybe Marmie was not the best choice. There is no way he could ever admit that.

    Look at this team there is no fire in their eyes, 9 outta 10 times it is the coach that causes this. Some teams look like this because they know their season is over. The Rams however were playing for a division lead and blew it. I really think Martz has lost this team. I think they have lost confidence in his strategy.

    Maybe Dez is right maybe the system is failing because of the injuries and lack of talent, well maybe that is the point. Look at the Patriots, when they get injuries another player steps up and plays his heart out.People are willing to do anything to make that coach a winner, we do not have that at the moment. Dez asked the question about the Rams motives, he asked if we as fans really beleive that the players are not giving their all? Well I beleive they are tired, and have given up and lost faith in their leader, and when that happens it is hard to stay motivated. They are playing to the level of coaching we are seeing right now.

    Tell me Martz supporters that you do not blame him for last year's playoff debacle, tell me that he did not cost us the Super Bowl vs the Pats with the inability to utilize the league's offensive player of the year (Faulk). The 2 back to back losing seasons? Well I think we already had that. I guess I will never forgive Martz for last year's Sehorn incident, that guy should never have been the deep cover man on 3rd and what was it 18 yards. Everyone knew where the ball had to go but the Rams.

    Will Martz be fired? Not as I see it. The only person more arrogant then Martz is Georgia, she will not allow it in my opinion. I think Martz does not leave till he retires. That is just a hunch I hope I am wrong.
    LET'S GO DODGERS

  10. #130
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    P.S ATC I know you see lack of change as a major problem too on that we agree it is the Warner thing that baffles me.
    LET'S GO DODGERS

  11. #131
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    No, that's not that rationale at all. Martz didn't quit on the run after the first attempt.
    Oh, so 2 attempts would be enough? How 'bout 3? To me, 10 attempts is just as ludicrous a number to conclude that the running game is completely useless to even attempt. We've had this discussion before. 10 rushing attempts in a game is too few. Whether it's working or not. For the poster to conclude that the running game wasn't working because we only gained 22 yards on 10 attempts is just as ludicrous as my extreme example. You see, when you say that 2.2 yards per carry on 10 attempts is conclusive, you are not being realistic. My example was not realistic either. Both are the same rationale.

  12. #132
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    laramfanlongtime

    I forgot that Martz went and broke Kurts hand with a hammer when he was sleeping. Injuries happen to older Qb's who get a late chance that is football. What is also football is tough decisions. There is not one coach in this league that would trade or bench a young QB who took his team to the playoffs with a first round bye so the salty veteran who has had reoccuring problems as a result of injuries could start. Football does not work that way sorry ATC.
    On the contrary, nearly every Head Coach I have ever read about categorically state that the veteran QB is the QB when they come back from injury; that the upstart has to take the position from them. I don't have time to do it again, but I've posted previously an analysis of the games after the Giants game last year where Bulger stunk up the field until a particular point.. and then he went and had a decent game where the defense and Wilkins bailed the game out on him, then there was no way to get Warner back in there.

    The bottom line is that Warner should not have been benched after the Giants game last year. Despite a concussion, he had a very good game. Even counting the fumbles. No one has proven that Warner's injuries have washed him up. In fact, Warner's play this year for a Giants team that has less talent that our Rams has argued otherwise.

    As for the rest of your post, I add nothing except that I agree wholeheartedly.

    I simply don't agree that Warner's used up, and I still firmly believe that he has leadership skills Bulger only dreams of, as well as talent that it will take Bulger a few more years to develop.

    My biggest criticism of Martz' moves is that the way he treated Warner after the Giants game last year actually fed Bulger's belief that he was ready to take on the high-octane GSOT. Bulger's not ready now, nor do I believe he ever will be. I believe Warner was ready last year.. you believe he wasn't... I ask.. why did Martz give him the extension prior to 2003, then? I ask... when did Warner get a fair shot at it? It's all water under the bridge, though, except for the bitterness at what could have been. Because after the Arizona game last year.. when Bulger had a decent game against a poor Cardinal's team (after stinking against the Whiners and Seattle), the die was cast. Most of you look at our 12-4 season last year (actually 12-5.. which is more important) and see a successful year. I see smoke and mirrors. Many of you were down on our D last year.. but we led the league in takeaways.. our QB simply gave the ball back to the other team as many times as he threw for TDs... and Wilkins kicked until his leg almost fell off. We were exposed in the playoffs by Carolina... so.. I don't see last year as a positive. I think we could have had the same result, and not only beat Carolina, but actually had a better record (perhaps home field throughout the playoffs) and perhaps a rematch with New England. No way to prove it. But the rest of the story speaks for itself. We're 6-8 now. Even a healthy Bulger hasn't been lighting up the board with GSOT stats.. our D can't buy a takeaway, nor stop the other team... THAT'S my Warner take.

    Now, RamTime published an article that gives some insight into howcome we keep eroding talent but not replacing it, starting with the draft of Canidate.. but that's another story, and it's his to tell. But it's a good one, and goes hand-in-hand with this.

    Sorry to ramble, but you asked me a question that intrigued me. And you did it in a respectful way.

  13. #133
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by moklerman
    Oh, so 2 attempts would be enough? How 'bout 3? To me, 10 attempts is just as ludicrous a number to conclude that the running game is completely useless to even attempt. We've had this discussion before. 10 rushing attempts in a game is too few. Whether it's working or not. For the poster to conclude that the running game wasn't working because we only gained 22 yards on 10 attempts is just as ludicrous as my extreme example. You see, when you say that 2.2 yards per carry on 10 attempts is conclusive, you are not being realistic. My example was not realistic either. Both are the same rationale.
    And all of that is based on your opinion, which I do not share. Thus, the basis of a message board, it seems. In my opinion, to think that we would have magically started dominating the Cardinals on the line of scrimmage and open up vast running lanes with another ten rushing attempts is, as you would put it, ludicrous.

  14. #134
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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    And all of that is based on your opinion, which I do not share. Thus, the basis of a message board, it seems.
    So, 10 attempts is enough for you to determine that the running game CAN"T work against the Cardinals? Gimmee a number that's realistic to you. I understand your position that the Rams didn't have the personnel or opportunity to run the ball based on circumstances so I'm just curious what your cut-off point is.

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    Re: Today, Mike Martz lost my support. Its time for a change.

    In my opinion, to think that we would have magically started dominating the Cardinals on the line of scrimmage and open up vast running lanes with another ten rushing attempts is, as you would put it, ludicrous.
    There were several times this year where Adrian Peterson started out the game with 3-5 carries for only 10 yards or so. By the end of the game, he had over 200.

    You devise a scheme to take it to a team like the Cardinals on the ground. You stick with it until you get a better read on it than we got. You perhaps try some fresh legs (Jackson). Maybe the fresh legs isn't the only thing you get when you sub. Who knows? 10 rushing attempts against the Cardinals is laughable.

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