Travis Fisher

[AlphaRam]

I haven't had the chance to watch all of NFL replay this evening (something always comes up), but one example is 5:46 remaining in the 3rd...pass interference against Travis Fisher . He didn't ever look for the ball, but grabbed Branch's arm, then the football hit Fisher in the back.

That's one.

13:33 left in the 4th - Branch catches a TD vs Fisher. Fisher never looked for the ball.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by RealRam

I think the picture in your current signature speaks a thousand words, easily. :x

Does it? You bring up how this picture speaks a thousand words, but here are the words the two announcers for Sunday's game used to describe that play:

Commentator 1: "And you can see that there's gonna be a great relationship between Hasselbeck and Branch 'cause Travis Fisher can't cover Deion Branch any better."

Commentator 2: "And they'll say it every time because it's true, perfect throw will beat perfect coverage all day long."

While I'll be the first to admit that game commentators are not the end all and be all of sports knowledge, it strikes me as somewhat strange that both of them would make it a point to emphasize Fisher's great coverage if it is as egregious as some Clan members think.

If it was okay coverage, they wouldn't have to say anything. If it was bad, they could have pointed it out. Earlier in the game they were critical of Fisher on his pass interference penalty, so clearly they don't have a reason to hold back now. But they don't hold back. They actually praise his coverage. Interesting, I think, considering how much criticism it's drawn.

But take a closer look at the picture in the sig, or better yet, go back and watch the game video. Fisher has no safety help because the Rams are bringing a blitz and the lone safety still in the secondary - Atogwe - is responsible for Cover 1 of the entire endzone.

Fisher is in man coverage by himself against Branch. He's on him like a blanket, evident in the picture but even more clear when watching the video. Hasselbeck makes a perfect throw, and as the ball nears Branch and Deion begins to reach up to make the catch, Fisher reacts by reaching up to try and block the catch - again, evident in RF16's sig picture as well as the game tape itself.

So what would critics suggest Fisher do? Even those who lack faith in Fisher should be able to admit this is far from a blown coverage. Branch is not wide open in the end zone. Far from it, actually. Fisher is right on his guy, and he has his hands up trying to make a play to disrupt the pass. What else can you ask a guy to do? Turn to locate the ball? As I'll point out later in response to radjohns, that tactic didn't serve two other Ram defenders well in their failed attempts to prevent passing touchdowns. Furthermore, Fisher is solely responsible for his man. Turning to locate the ball gives Branch the opportunity to gain better separation because Fisher is no longer focusing on staying close to him.

On this play, I believe you have to credit the Seattle players for perfect execution before you can criticize Fisher of poor play.

Originally Posted by RealRam

Fisher has failed badly on a few occasions that have been extremely costly.

Maybe you can assist RF16 then in pointing them out specifically, then. It seems there are a number of people who like to keep saying Fisher has played badly and leave it at that. Okay... I know I personally would appreciate it if some of them could provide examples to support those claims and help make me a believer (or non-believer, as the case may be). I've already mentioned two plays against Arizona where his poor tackling resulted in big runs after the catch. Are there other examples? Surely if he's playing as poorly as some suggest, there are numerous examples one could bring up.

Originally Posted by radjohns

Too often, as in that picture of the Branch TD, Fisher fails to turn to locate the ball. If that isn't an example of poor play on FIsher's part then I don't know what is. Sure he's fast enough to stay with most WR's, but what does that matter when he lacks the instincts to locate the ball.

Interesting. Would you say turning to locate the ball helped Tye Hill when it caused him to lose posiiton on Deion Branch on Branch's first touchdown pass (as evident in the game tape)? Would you say turning to locate the ball helped OJ Atogwe on Darrell Jackson's deep TD pass? Looking back for the ball actually resulted in Atogwe tripping over his own two feet and taking himself out of the play (again, evident in the game tape).

There are times when watching the quarterback and locating the ball are good strategies. There are also times, though, when as a corner you've got to read and react to the man you're guarding, because taking your attention off of him for one second could cost you position and take you out of the play. Man to man in the endzone with no safety help is not one of those times where you take your eyes off your guy, IMO. Fisher was the sole player resonsible for Branch, and he had to make sure he had him covered. Remember, Branch knows where the ball is going. Fisher does not.

Is it really a good idea to look away from the direction you're running, stop paying attention the receiver you have great position on, and try to play Where's Waldo with a ball in the air? With maybe half a second of reacton time before the catch is made? I don't find that strategy very comforting in this instance at all.

Originally Posted by RamsFan16

Good point on the picture, and exactly right RealRam and radjohns, Nick, now I know your as smart as they come, and probrably one of the if not smartest person I know. But this (in my picture) is the Touchdown that you said was a Perfect pass and was perfect coverage on Fisher, but if you look (and I know it s apicture, and it could have looked diffrently) but it could have been prevented, as in the touchdown if Travis Fisher would locate the ball rather than depend on the reciever dropping it.

I don't think Fisher is depending on Branch dropping it at all. Like you said, look at the picture. He's right in Branch's hip pocket, and his arms are up to disrupt the pass. That's not a guy depending on a drop. That's a guy trying to break this thing up, and he's watching Branch's reaction to time the arrival of the ball!

Have you found any other specific examples we can look at?

[RealRam]

Can't get much more specific than that. Fisher has failed badly on a few occasions that have been extremely costly.

And since the tenor of the posts seems to be on moving on (I even quoted the real Rambo in another thread, when he told the small-town, super ego Sheriff: "Let ... it ... go"), it is indeed time to look into possible solutions more than the problem, even if the problem is only potential.

That is, a potential problem in the secondary, a leak in Travis Fisher, be it what it may in terms of "root cause analysis".

[RamsFan16]

Originally Posted by Nick

I don't think Fisher is depending on Branch dropping it at all. Like you said, look at the picture. He's right in Branch's hip pocket, and his arms are up to disrupt the pass. That's not a guy depending on a drop. That's a guy trying to break this thing up, and he's watching Branch's reaction to time the arrival of the ball!

I don't care if he's in the Recievers pocket, if you don't locate the ball, your very ineffective.

Thats like a Baseball player putting his glove up, but not locating the ball.

[MASSIVE]

Originally Posted by Fat Pang

As one of those who has decried our inability to get consistent pressure on the opposing teams QB, with all that means for the play of the secondary, I have to agree with Nick here.

If we are to be wholly consistent with our critiques of then guys in the secondary then the fact that you've been burned would mean that Tye Hill may well come in for the type of criticism that Fisher has received. I'm sure you'd all agree that this would be harsh and would point out that he's a first year player. If that counts in mitigation (and I think it does) then I think that our lack of a pass rush should also factor into our views of the situation.

Glover, the much heralded free agent signing, as well as Kennedy, have failed to provide the push in the middle that helps to free up the ends and get our secondary in a position where they can make a play on a poorly thrown ball. You gave any NFL QB around 5 seconds post snap and they will find their target. You give a good one the same time and they will kill you all day.

A salient fact to observe is that whilst some teams can get a decent rush out of their base D or even three down linemen we can't. To get pressure we have to send people on every passing down which in turn will leave holes. It leads to the kind of inconsistency we've seen.

Don't want to teach anyone to suck eggs here, it's just that if we are really going to throw some tough love around then maybe the front four haven't been getting their share.

Wow Are you really surprised that Kennedy has failed to provide a pass rush? The the only thing I want from Kennedy is for him to occupy two blockers too free are linebackers to make plays. My opinion on Glover is that he has done a good job so far and he is getting double teamed alot on pass play, Our DE have not taken advantage of this.:l

[Nick]

Originally Posted by AlphaRam

I haven't had the chance to watch all of NFL replay this evening (something always comes up), but one example is 5:46 remaining in the 3rd...pass interference against Travis Fisher . He didn't ever look for the ball, but grabbed Branch's arm, then the football hit Fisher in the back.

That's one.

This one I agree with, though I think it's a very marginal call, and one Haslett responds to by mouthing a very clear "That's bull****!"

But like you said, Fisher isn't looking at the ball. The contact is going both ways, but contact like that is only going to get excused if you're playing the ball. So that one I agree with you on, though I really think that's more ticky-tack than anything.

Originally Posted by AlphaRam

13:33 left in the 4th - Branch catches a TD vs Fisher. Fisher never looked for the ball.

Yes, we're discussing that one now. Take a look at my earlier explanation about this play, because I believe there's a lot more to this than simply looking at the ball.

[RealRam]

fftopic:

Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs
than a fool in his folly. -- Prov. 17:12

Somehow this passage is so appropriate when dealing with the advocates of false pride and stubborness.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by RamsFan16

I don't care if he's in the Recievers pocket, if you don't locate the ball, your very ineffective.

Thats like a Baseball player putting his glove up, but not locating the ball.

No offense, but that's really a horrible comparison. When a batter pops a fly ball, a baseball player's focus is on the ball. He doesn't have an offensive player running around him that he has to stick with. As for locating the ball, again, it's not something cornerbacks do on every play. I have personally watched Chris McAllister this season do exactly what Fisher did in the endzone and play the receiver rather than the ball. This is done so that you can maintain good coverage on the receiver, because if your attention is on the ball then you're exposing yourself to losing position.

Have you found any other specific examples we can look at?

Originally Posted by RealRam

fftopic:

Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs
than a fool in his folly. -- Prov. 17:12

Somehow this passage is so appropriate when dealing with the advocates of false pride and stubborness.

Not sure I follow where you're going with this, would you care to explain?

[radjohns]

Hill and OJ, while liabilities in their own right, have nothing to with Fisher being a poor cover corner. Fisher gets beat early and often, there have been plenty of examples of this in the last three games alone. The defensive line gets little to no pressure. It is what it is. If you can spin Fisher's faults into the golden egg, more power to you. I'll try to come around and read the article, if I have the time.

[RealRam]

Does it actually need explanation, Nick? :x Not logical enough for you?

[RamsFan16]

I know Cornerbacks don't do it every play, but they attempt alot, and Fisher doesn't attempt to do it ANY play.

No I do'nt have any examples, I'm watching the Lakers game. Tomrrow we get out of school early and since I'm stuck here, I'll do a video or something on him.

[AlphaRam]

How can he know when to try to A) break up the pass or B) hit the receiver if he doesn't know where the ball is at?

[BET81BILL]

I thought it was good Dee since face guarding isn't even a penelty anymore, You have to watch a man to defend aginst him.

[Fat Pang]

Originally Posted by MASSIVE

Wow Are you really surprised that Kennedy has failed to provide a pass rush? The the only thing I want from Kennedy is for him to occupy two blockers too free are linebackers to make plays. My opinion on Glover is that he has done a good job so far and he is getting double teamed alot on pass play, Our DE have not taken advantage of this.:l

I'm not surprised at all, I'm providing a context for our defensive struggles rather than just blaming it on one guy. In my post (and previous posts on the subject) I didn't focus on Kennedy, I'm looking at the D-Line as a unit. That said, whether you're playing nose or '3-technique' you have to be able to push the pocket on passing downs to force the QB to get shot of it before he wants to. We aren't doing that, and we're struggling to provide opportunities for the secondary because of it. The whole unit, Little apart, needs to step it up.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by radjohns

Hill and OJ, while liabilities in their own right, have nothing to with Fisher being a poor cover corner.

It sounds like you missed the point of their being referenced. The point was to show that turning to locate the ball does not always put the defender in a better position to prevent a touchdown or make a play on the ball.

While Hill and OJ as players have nothing to do with Fisher, the results of their using the strategy being suggested here certainly has some relevence I would think!

Originally Posted by radjohns

Fisher gets beat early and often, there have been plenty of examples of this in the last three games alone.

Yet it's like pulling teeth when trying to get people to actually name them. You'd think if he's been playing poorly the whole season, the examples would be easy to find and readily available. I'm more than willing to admit or be convinced when he's not done a good job, as evident in Alpha's reference to his pass interference call. I just need someone to provide some specifics!

Originally Posted by RealRam