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Thread: Travis Fisher

  1. #46
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by UtterBlitz View Post
    He plays way off his man.
    So you're saying when he lines up, he's too far away from his man is what I'm understanding from your post. When Fisher or any DB goes out and lines up, he doesn't get to pick and choose where he lines up, he lines up where he is told to by the play that Haslett called. So it's not up to Fisher where he lines up.

    Just think if the WRs start lining up where they wanted to and ran the routes they wanted. It doesn't happen, they run the play that was called. Same goes for the D.

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    Yeah so does a db's head and eyes.....
    Right, but the DB is following two moving things, where the baseball player is following one moving thing. I'm not saying Fisher or DBs in general can't do it, they obviously can, I'm just saying that's a tough comparison to make when the wall isn't moving but the WR is.
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    Right, but the DB is following two moving things, where the baseball player is following one moving thing. I'm not saying Fisher or DBs in general can't do it, they obviously can, I'm just saying that's a tough comparison to make when the wall isn't moving but the WR is.
    So do me a favor and forget about the baseball analogy. This is the NFL not peewee pop warner. These guys made it to NFL because they are better than the rest. I wonder what percent of people that the love the game of football and their dream is to play in the NFL actually make it ? Is it like 1 in every 10,000 ???

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    So do me a favor and forget about the baseball analogy. This is the NFL not peewee pop warner. These guys made it to NFL because they are better than the rest. I wonder what percent of people that the love the game of football and their dream is to play in the NFL actually make it ? Is it like 1 in every 10,000 ???
    Ok, so you're saying Fisher shouldn't be in the NFL then? Or he should just be a backup, or a nickel guy? I'm just not sure where you are going with the pop warner part.

    Don't get me wrong I haven't been jumping for joy about Fisher's play, but this one play that is being discussed where Fisher was in Branch's hip pocket but didn't look back in time was a perfect throw. A perfect throw and catch will beat perfect coverage every time.
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    Ok, so you're saying Fisher shouldn't be in the NFL then? Or he should just be a backup, or a nickel guy? I'm just not sure where you are going with the pop warner part.

    Don't get me wrong I haven't been jumping for joy about Fisher's play, but this one play that is being discussed where Fisher was in Branch's hip pocket but didn't look back in time was a perfect throw. A perfect throw and catch will beat perfect coverage every time.
    I'm not picking on Fisher at all. What I'm saying is that players in the NFL are more than 1 dimensional. Earlier in this thread the statement is made that Fisher rarely looks back for the ball. His eyes are glued on the receiver. Then the question is asked which should he do ? Watch the receiver or look for the ball ? In my mind there is no which....He should be able to do both at some point during any given play. That goes for any player in the NFL, successful NFL players do not play with the blinders on.

  6. #51
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Its always tempting when things don't go your team's way to try to single out guys as the problem. Fisher's an easy target but it just isn't that simple.

    What fans seem to forget is that football is a team sport. There are probably only a handful of players in the league who are so talented that they can "do it on their own." Most players, even those considered the best at their position, are dependent on their teammates.

    RBs can't run w/out blocking (ask Edgerrin James).
    QBs can't pass w/out protection (ask David Carr).
    WRs can't make plays without an accuate passer (ask Randy Moss).
    LBs can't make plays without DTs keeping O linemen off them (ask Zach Thomas).

    and

    CBs can't cover WRs without a pass rush to help them (ask about 90% of the CBs in the league).

    Put Travis Fisher on a team that averages 4 sacks per game (instead of the just over 2 sacks per game the Rams average) and suddenly people would say he's having a great year.

    That's not to say the Rams shouldn't consider giving others (Butler, Bartell) more opportunities. But if you think any player on the Rams roster can cover a starting NFL WR all game without the help of a pass rush, you're kidding yourself.

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    AV, your right. There are 11 parts to the defensive unit that need to be in sinc. If a player is unable to support the unit it needs to be addressed. Whether it's the coach feeling the player is capable of learning his role or if the player just doesn't have what it takes to fill the role and support the unit.

  8. #53
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Again, I'm not saying that Fisher is necessarily the best option the Rams have. I'll leave that to the coaching staff.

    But when a QB has all day to throw, makes a perfect throw, and beats a CB who is inches from the receiver, I find it difficult to conclude that the CB is the problem.

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Just so we're clear....

    MY Point of View

    1. Fisher is one of the two best corners on this roster.
    2. Without a pass rush, Spiderman couldn't cover a receiver.
    3. I'm not sure why we're arguing the pass rush as I've yet to see anybody disagree with the lack of pass rush.
    4. Stastically, Fisher has not been a playmaker.

    All those who say Fisher doesn't get beat deep, I agree with. Receivers typically don't get behind him. He plays pretty loose, which is great for not getting beat deep. He does a great job in the bend-don't-break type of defense. But this loose play also allows for shorter quick routes, and this is what people see when watching the game. The receiver gets a quick 5 yard, 7 yard, or 9 yard play, and Fisher is the first defensive player they see. It's not the single long play (like Hill gave up, and has given up), but numerous quick hits that still get Fisher camera time. And that type of camera time adds up in the eyes of fans.

    And, no I'm not saying he's doing anything other than what he is being coached to do. But I am saying he plays a loose game. If he were more of a playmaker, then the average fan may see it differently, but simply avoiding the long play (as I'm sure he's coached to do) doesn't register with the average fan.

    Speaking of being a playmaker, I, for one, would like to see Fisher create more TOs.

    Over the past three years, his tackles to interceptions ratio is shockingly bad compared to our other corners:

    Fisher - 93 (16 straight games without a pick)
    Hill - 17 (only based on this year, obviously)
    Brown - 27
    Butler - 16

    Even our safeties have lower tackle to int. ratios than Fisher. I would guarantee most fans would hold Fisher in higher regard if his name were ever mentioned in a game that didn't involve him tackling the receiver he was covering.

    Now, like I said earlier, he is still one of the two best corners on our roster. Hill is obviously not ready to start. Butler must still not be 100%. And Bartell has spent his time thus far as a backup safety. And, his play has gotten better. As you mentioned earlier, his play in Arizona was not good (but of course there he made a few deep mistakes). In Detroit, he was not impressive. However, his play in Green Bay was his best of the year. That break-up on Driver was outstanding! And, his coverage against Seattle was excellent as well. Hass and the receivers were just that much better. Hass was throwing those balls through doughnut holes. No cover man in the world was going to shut him down on Sunday.
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  10. #55
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by RealRam View Post
    Nevertheless, here's another fact for you: I will no longer discuss with you anything on Rams CB Travis Fisher. [Facts are by nature usually not in the future but the future will soon support this fact].
    I'm not sure I see how I'm being inflexible when only a page or two ago AlphaRam brought up a play in the Seahawks game (the pass interference call) and, despite concerns about the severity of the penalty, I agreed Fisher could have done better.

    It would seem to me the inflexible and uncompromising individual would be the person shutting themselves off to further conversation on the issue rather than the one willing to examine plays that support the others' claims.


    Quote Originally Posted by UtterBlitz View Post
    All though this is a valid and good point, it does not take away from the fact that Fisher is not performing well.
    Well, I'll try now to address some of the points you brought up:

    -Off Coverage: This is a scheme issue because all of our defensive backs have done this numerous times this year. I would think if Fisher wasn't supposed to be playing off his man at times, he likely would not be playing as much as he is.

    -Breaking/playing the ball: This sounds like a legitimate criticism of Fisher, and I think related to breaking on the ball is his reaction speed. He plays loose on occasion (which again I think is a scheme issue) but at times could react to the ball sooner, especially on some of those slants where he could move up and try to make a tackle or lay a hit as the catch is being made.

    -PI: I believe he's only drawn one this year, so I'd hardly say that's a lot. Comparatively, Brown has drawn two. Travis did have a holding call in the Green Bay game though, I believe.

    -Hits: He just made a pretty big hit in the Seattle game against a receiver that got by Chavous. Came across field and put a shoulder into him, if I recall correctly. I really think he's more physical than fans tend to give him credit for.

    -Looking helpless: When has he simply run next to a guy and done nothing? I don't want to speak in absolutes, but many of the plays I've seen where Fisher is in a position to do something like make a tackle, he attempts to do so. Maybe he doesn't succeed all the time, but let's give him credit for trying. In fact, after missing a tackle on Bryant Johnson in the Arizona game, as Johnson was sprinting down the field, Fisher hustled back to him and brought him down by himself. A guy with a helpless attitude or M.O. wouldn't have made that kind of second effort, IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by laram0 View Post
    A quality defensive back can do both at the same time. Read and react, Read and react.

    ...

    What's it called....Head on a swivel.
    I would contend that when you're back is to the quarterback, as Fisher's is on the Branch touchdown, it's pretty difficult if not impossible to do both. Either you're watching the receiver in front of you or you're looking for the ball behind you. You have to make a choice in that instant.

    I agree that it is possible to stay with a receiver and look back for the ball in certain situations, such as when the receiver and quarterback are still both in front of you or a route where you're covering the receiver who is moving across the field and thus only have to turn your head 90-degrees to look for the ball.

    But to contend that a guy running with his back to the QB has the ability to turn his head around to find the ball while still being able to focus on the receiver in front of him just sounds physically impossible to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post
    But when a QB has all day to throw, makes a perfect throw, and beats a CB who is inches from the receiver, I find it difficult to conclude that the CB is the problem.
    Precisely!


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Speaking of being a playmaker, I, for one, would like to see Fisher create more TOs.
    I agree. And he's done it in the past too, because I believe he intercepted four passes in 2003 and returned two of them for touchdowns.

    The question now is how healthy is he. It sounds as if he's been bothered by his groin for at least two weeks, and this is an injury that plagued him last season. If this is a recurring health issue that refuses to go away, then his future with this team could be pretty bleak.


    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    In Detroit, he was not impressive.
    Overall, I think he was neither impressive nor disappointing but simply solid. There were both goods and bads in that game.

    He made two very nice plays in the red zone - (1) by jamming a receiver and redirecting him on a play that resulted in a sack as Kitna couldn't find a receiver, and (2) on a key third down and goal he shoved tight end Campbell out of bounds and prevented a touchdown in the third quarter. He also got pretty decent second effort pressure on a corner blitz on a fourth-quarter third down that, combined with additional pressure from La'Roi Glover, forced Kitna on the move and into an incompletion.

    He also had some disappointing moments, such as not being able to stay with Furrey on a third down drag route that resulted in a first down as well as losing his footing while covering Hakim on what looked like a curl route in the fourth quarter. With less than a minute to go in the game, the Rams blitzed Kitna but couldn't get there, and Williams caught 16-yard pass and then stiff armed Fisher right in the grill before diving forward for another 2-3 yards.

    So yea, goods and bads. I thought he was okay overall. I think Brown had kind of a rough game, which included allowing a touchdown to Mike Furrey of all people.

    Like you said though, his last two games have been fairly good IMO though. In limited time against Green Bay I thought he played well, and I think your points on the Seattle play are spot on. Sometimes it's easier for fans to blame their own players for mistakes than it is to credit the opposition for simply making plays when they had to. In the case of Branch's second touchdown, I really think the credit goes to amazing offensive execution.
    Last edited by Nick; -10-18-2006 at 02:50 PM.
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerRam View Post

    ...But when a QB has all day to throw, makes a perfect throw, and beats a CB who is inches from the receiver, I find it difficult to conclude that the CB is the problem.
    i don't find it too difficult to assess that the CB may be a problem, in light of the fact that fisher rarely turns his head or play the ball on consistent basis*, especially when, as you mention, that the corner is "inches" from the receiver.

    (*i can sense nick ready to pounce on this by requesting specific examples...but really, can you give specifics examples to refute it categorically? or are you just playing the cards knowing most posters rarely keep meticulous play by play or video records of each and every game and hence will rarely respond accordingly to your challenge? most of us give opinions of players or coaches based on less than reliable cumulative memories and so when nick asks for evidence to prove or dissprove what is in fact an opinion it would seem pointless since it's painfully obvious that his opinion of the facts differ in the first place.)

    but this doesn't make fisher the worst CB in the league because only a handful has the instincts to make the play on the ball in the downward trajectory segment of a ball in flight. i think fisher is a solid fringe-level CB who rarely makes a mistake and is disciplined enough and fast enough to avoid giving up the long balls over his head...but is not instinctive enough nor has the ball skills to make game changing plays on a consistent game to game basis like the better ones in this league.

    nick makes a good point in his first post regarding the importance of the front line providing a pass rush, but this is less irrelevant, imo, in regards to fisher since he is one of the fastest players on the team and does play off the line well. he should have the speed to shadow and stay behind most wrs in this league except the elite few that have speed and agility. hence, it would seem more obvious that opposing QBs would attack our less speedy DBs when given plethora of time...unless they've already figured out in the scouting process that fisher doesn't have good ball skills and rarely plays the ball...

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    It would seem to me the inflexible and uncompromising individual would be the person shutting themselves off to further conversation on the issue rather than the one willing to examine plays that support the others' claims. -- Nick
    Accurately, perfectly apropos of you! See following paraphrase No. 2.


    Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs
    than a fool in his folly.
    -- Prov. 17:12

    1. It is better for one to confront a mother bear whose cubs have just been stolen than to meet a stubborn person ranting about his/her ways.

    2. You're better off fighting a mad bear whose cubs have just been stolen than to argue with a person engrossed in his/her stubborness (i.e., their never ending blabber of 'ifs, ands, or buts').
    As promissed, I refuse to discuss Travis Fisher w/you based on the above evidence but frankly, I think that even our own CB would be more flexible to admit his faults on the field than you, facts and all.


    On the other hand, I'm gald the Rams secondary will be getting Fahkir Brown back. I hope he is or will be around 90% healthy / strong. I suppose Coach Haslett will be very busy looking at the entire D on film, on the practice field, under the microscope, in his dream, etc., and prepare a nice travel package for the defense to visit San Diego.

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    WOW! I did not expect the discussion that has occurred in this thread. Yesterday was my first day back after serving 30 days away from the board to honor a bet with a Whiners fan when we lost the game to them.

    Some things I would like to point out.

    1. My opinion of Fisher stems from watching him since the 2003 season. I wish I had the resourses to have every Rams game on DVD to be able to review at my leisure and to support my opinion better. Unfortunately, I do not.

    2. Regarding the examples that I pointed out from the second half of NFL Replay from last night, Fisher never scoped the ball at any point in his defense of the receiver. Additionally, he got called for pass interference on a ball that he could have turned around to intercept had he not been grabbing the receiver's arm.

    3. I played wide receiver for many years, although not pro or college, and also played occassionally as a DB. I made a point to glance for the ball at opportune times while covering my receiver. Not looking for the ball is inexcusable.

    4. The incident that I cited where Fisher poked Steve Smith in the eye across the line of scrimmage in 2003 was what got me following Fisher's play. I do not know how the officials missed it, but my opinion is that Fisher would get called for more penalties if the officials watched him better.

    5. I did not blame Fisher for the loss on Sunday - that was a team effort. the thread is to discuss the play of Travis Fisher. i lloked to see that there was not a thread already started, then posted my general opinion.

    6. We are all Rams fans here, so let's not tear into each other over a lively discussion. I have no problem with Nick's challenge to support my opinion and I respect his point of view. I feel this discussion could be settled if Nick will send me a copy of every Rams game that he has on DVD. (lol)

    GO RAMS! (even Travis Fisher!)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Good post Alpha. I respect your more mature, sensible views. Thumbs up.

    GO RAMS SECONDARY!

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsbruce View Post
    So you're saying when he lines up, he's too far away from his man is what I'm understanding from your post. When Fisher or any DB goes out and lines up, he doesn't get to pick and choose where he lines up, he lines up where he is told to by the play that Haslett called. So it's not up to Fisher where he lines up.

    Just think if the WRs start lining up where they wanted to and ran the routes they wanted. It doesn't happen, they run the play that was called. Same goes for the D.
    I can't believe that the offense and the defense have the same philosophy. WRs line up in exact positions and run precise routes so that the QB will know where they will be on the field.

    The defense has to be more free form than that. They are hunting down the ball and they have to be able to adapt to their situation more freely than the offense. I am sure the the CBs are given advice or even directions about where they should line up and how much cushion to give. I would think that it is the secondary coach, Willie Robinson who is barking those orders, not Haslett.

    I am not trying to be difficult, but I think there is plenty of wiggle room on the defense to improvise as the players see fit.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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