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Thread: Travis Fisher

  1. #76
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Or maybe Haslett doesn't think he's stinking it up? Food for thought.
    It's my belief there is another option......he just doesn't stink as much as the other corners. Our corners just aren't that talented. (Insert obligatory statement about lack of pass rush), but our corners just aren't among the upper end of cover men in the league.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I'm still waiting for someone on the other side to really start doing the same to try and convince me.
    I'd stop holding my breath, Nick. It's become quite obvious over the past 5 pages of this thread that you are the only one with the game film and the time or desire to sift through them.

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Off topic, are we not 4-2? You would think we are getting gashed and not in any games when you read some of this stuff. Bye week.

  3. #78
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    1) For us, I think that means another defensive lineman who can regularly take advantage of the double teams Little is commanding. So that would be my first priority, with additional upgrades to the secondary appearing later on the list but not at the top.

    2) So it would seem between not making a strong special teams contribution combined with not being the kind of player that fits well with what Haslett wants his DBs to do, Butler just isn't going to see a lot of time on the field. It will be interesting to see what happens to Butler in the offseason. He's not getting used here, but could have value elsewhere, which means a trade may be possible.
    1) I agree with this, drafting a DE (most likely in the 1st round) is exactly what I've been thinking while watching this Rams defense, despite the problems we also have in the secondary. A guard could be a good pick too, depending on the player available, although I think our offensive line has improved to the point that it wouldn't currently be my main focus.

    2) I can agree that Butler may not be as physical as Fisher, and probably not a good blitzer either (honestly can't remember either player making much of a difference on blitzes right now). And it's also true that special teams isn't his strong suit, I'm not sure he's ever played much special teams at all. His tackling is solid but nothing too special, still a minor upgrade over Fisher IMHO. I guess we don't differ that much in our assessment of Butler really. I just think his improved coverage skills over Fisher outweigh the mentioned drawbacks. As for the blitzing/playing physical I will concede that as a drawback, but I don't have a lot of problems with having one pure cover guy out there, we can still blitz from a lot of other places. Having the best cover corner in man coverage on a receiver can even open up some options for bringing pressure from elsewhere, so I see it as a drawback, but not an insurmountable one. Special teams play I don't even see as a drawback, some of that comes from me seeing Butler as a player with starter talent - not as a depth guy, so I wouldn't even expect him to do much on special teams, I'd leave that to some of the other spots on the roster regardless.

    In conclusion I have been thinking of us trading away Butler too, I think there is a very very high likelyhood of that happening this offseason. I seem to remember a few years ago when Butler was a restricted free agent, some other team (Redskins?) signed him to an offer sheet and we matched and kept him. So I think both in terms of other teams being interested in him, and in terms of Butler himself being sorely disappointed with his (lack of) role this season makes a trade very likely, and to me that would be a shame. I could see Butler going somewhere else and having some success. If they do trade him I hope we at least get something decent in return but with the playing time he sees this year his value will likely be close to zero in the offseason. It's a depressing story to see our top cover corner for a couple of seasons reduced to not even on the active roster, to potential trade bait. And I just ask myself, what happened...

  4. #79
    Nick's Avatar
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    It's my belief there is another option......he just doesn't stink as much as the other corners. Our corners just aren't that talented. (Insert obligatory statement about lack of pass rush), but our corners just aren't among the upper end of cover men in the league.

    I'd stop holding my breath, Nick. It's become quite obvious over the past 5 pages of this thread that you are the only one with the game film and the time or desire to sift through them.
    Perhaps that's the case, him being the one that's least poor of the current lot. I certainly don't think we have a bunch of superstars in this secondary, and I don't think anyone can say for certain how Haslett views him besides Haslett himself.

    That being said, I guess I just haven't seen the evidence that he's been stinking it up to begin with. I think through six games Fisher has been okay/solid/adequate. He's not been great, because he's had a few tackling gaffes and hasn't been able to come up with turnovers for whatever reason. I think he could do a better job reacting to the quick slant to try and minimize the gain, and as LaRamsFanLongTime pointed out, he also needs to do a more consistent job staying with his man on crossing/drag routes.

    But he's not been horrible either, IMO. I mean, I hesitate to even think what the fan reaction would be if Fisher, like Tye Hill, was the Ram in man coverage on four opposing touchdown passes thus far this season (one to Furrey, one to Jennings, one to Branch, one to Jackson). Tye gets the benefit of the doubt from a lot of fans, including myself, because we understand he's young and will make mistakes in the growing process. But that doesn't change the fact that opponents are scoring on Hill's man, whereas the only touchdown to come against Fisher this season happened just this weekend and, IMO, was against pretty good coverage.

    I think overall his tackling has been good. Yes he made two big missed tackles in Arizona, but I'm not going to conclude that he's done poorly tackling because of those two missed tackles when he's also made 21 solo others and when watching the tape I see him stepping up and being physical with receivers and even tight ends. He also to my knowledge hasn't allowed a deep reception all year, which I think speaks well of his ability to turn and run with receivers and not let them get behind him and gain separation.

    Maybe I'm wrong though and he is stinking it up less. That's why I inquired about the specific instances in which he has, so I could be shown what others seem to be upset about. The resounding response to that challenge has been... a lack of specific examples to support the claim. Like you suggested, maybe I should stop holding my breath.

    Of course when I issued that challenge, I really didn't expect people to spend an afternoon rewatching game film to come up with examples, nor did I think they'd have to. But I would think if Fisher has been as horrible as some suggest, the examples shouldn't be hard to find or recall.

    I just find it strange that Fisher is genuinely regarded as having played poorly this year but through five pages of debate there have been very few specific examples to support such an opinion and a number of the criticisms made of Fisher have actually been countered. It's that kind of response that makes me wonder if Fisher simply makes for a nice scapegoat.


    Quote Originally Posted by RamOfDenmark View Post
    1) I agree with this, drafting a DE (most likely in the 1st round) is exactly what I've been thinking while watching this Rams defense, despite the problems we also have in the secondary. A guard could be a good pick too, depending on the player available, although I think our offensive line has improved to the point that it wouldn't currently be my main focus.
    Plus, I think this interior line class leaves a bit to be desired, so the Rams may have more success addressing their offensive line through free agency. I would contend that very good free agent interior offensive linemen will cost less than very good free agent defensive ends.


    Quote Originally Posted by RamOfDenmark View Post
    2) I can agree that Butler may not be as physical as Fisher, and probably not a good blitzer either (honestly can't remember either player making much of a difference on blitzes right now). And it's also true that special teams isn't his strong suit, I'm not sure he's ever played much special teams at all. His tackling is solid but nothing too special, still a minor upgrade over Fisher IMHO.
    Well, I can recall two instances where pressure from a blitzing Fisher contributed to the quarterback making a poor throw. Fisher was blitzing Plummer on the Tye Hill interception play against Denver, and was blitzing Kitna on a key fourth-quarter third down to contribute to the pass rush that forced Kitna out of the pocket and into a bad throw. Fisher actually got blocked on the latter play, and fought through the block to pursue Kitna. I personally cannot see Butler beating that block. As for Jerametrius being a minor upgrade in tackling over Fisher, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Did you check out the video link I posted on Butler's last start?
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  5. #80
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Travis Fisher

    Just looking at his CB stats suggest he has been a bad CB. I know stats are not everything then you have to go with your own personal evaluation and it seems 4 out 5 or so believe he is a bad CB based on their observations over the last few years. Does this make the 1 out of 5 wrong no because it is nearly impossible to prove for either side. Some have pointed to one or two instances of good play and others have pointed to one or two instances of bad play. All the people come to their conclusions after years of watching him perform. Its some what like asking the question is there a god you will never be able to prove to the other side that there is or is not. Its a matter of belief and its not a matter of proving that player is bad or not. IMO he has been bad not as bad as I have carried on recently but he has been bad. What constitues a bad CB for me maybe expecting more out of a CB then someone elses opinion on what constitues a bad CB. Neither is right and neither can prove what it takes to be called a bad CB.

    I believe in two things:
    God and Fisher is a below average CB which is the same as bad by my definition.

  6. #81
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN View Post
    Its some what like asking the question is there a god you will never be able to prove to the other side that there is or is not. Its a matter of belief and its not a matter of proving that player is bad or not.
    I'm sorry, but in no way do I think evaluating the performance of a player in the NFL is anything like trying to prove the existance of a deity.

    Will people on one side of the debate ever accept what those on the other are saying? If they have an open mind and are willing to actually examine the play on the field objectively, I certainly think they could. And I think we've already seen examples of it in this thread from both sides.

    Furthermore, the notion that player performance is a matter of belief that shouldn't or can't be proven makes no sense to me at all. Imagine if an agent sat down at the negotiating table with a front office guy and claimed his player deserved a Pro Bowl level contract because he's playing at a Pro Bowl level, and when asked to prove it, said they don't have to because that's just what they believe. He'd be laughed out of the building.

    If a person is going to make a claim about a player's performance, it's my opinion that they probably ought to be able to support it in some way when asked. I would think that's a pretty fundamental part of discssion or debate. If the person can't, then maybe they should reevaluate their opinion based on what evidence actually does exist. That seems only fair, to me.
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  7. #82
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    This has turned out to be some discussion. While I don't think Fisher has been awful, he seems to be having difficulty in coverage downfield. He does a reasonable job of staying step for step with opposing recievers, but isn't getting it done by strictly playing the man. At some point, he's going to have to take a chance and play the ball. Recievers with any amount of athleticism will more often than not win the battle when the defender has no idea where the ball is, regardless of how tight the coverage is.

  8. #83
    STLRAMSFAN Guest

    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Furthermore, the notion that player performance is a matter of belief that shouldn't or can't be proven makes no sense to me at all.
    Beliefs/Opinions on what makes a good/bad CB will always vary from person to person. Beliefs/Opinions on who is a good/bad CB will always vary from person to person. Now a ProBowl player is easy to see it is not hard to see a Brett Favre or Peyton Manning. But a Bledsoe some people may say is bad and others may say he is good. It is each persons Beliefs/Opinions based on their own personal criteria for classifying them when making such statements. Same for owners and players when negoiating a contract they try to put a dollar figure on some one based on their talent and often they don't agree on the value of the talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Imagine if an agent sat down at the negotiating table with a front office guy and claimed his player deserved a Pro Bowl level contract because he's playing at a Pro Bowl level, and when asked to prove it, said they don't have to because that's just what they believe. He'd be laughed out of the building.
    In order to prove it they almost always bring stats into it to prove it and with a CB his INT's are often one of the first stats brought up. Fishers 1 INT in his last 25 starts is horrible. But seems as though you are ignoring this stat. Often teams think differently about how good a player is. Its not often the two sides totally agree on how good a player is. But IMO it is more likely they will agree when they put up huge numbers (stats).

    If a person is going to make a claim about a player's performance, it's my opinion that they probably ought to be able to support it in some way when asked. I would think that's a pretty fundamental part of discssion or debate. If the person can't, then maybe they should reevaluate their opinion based on what evidence actually does exist. That seems only fair, to me.
    To me the stats exist and if I was going to go back and look at tape I would wan't to look at every snap not just the ones that show good or bad plays. I base my opinion off of watching him play and seeing him get burnt often. Do I recall all the plays he has got burnt on no just as I can't recall all the plays that our other CBs got burnt on. I can't recall one play from last year that Furrey got burnt on but I remember he did get Burnt a lot. I remember he had some big INTs but was also Burnt alot. I probably could not even name one of Furrey INTs without going back and looking at tape. By the way who am I? Some of us do not have the longest of memories but people make an impression on us and every impression I ever remember of Fisher tells me he is a bad CB.
    Last edited by STLRAMSFAN; -10-20-2006 at 12:49 AM.

  9. #84
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Fisher isn't good, in fact,he's never been good. As much as Mike tried to convince us, I have never thought that him and Butler were superlative, top drawer cover men. Our D, for as long as I've known it, has had one decent cover man (Lyght, Bly, Williams, Brown) and one pretty ordinary one (McCleon, Henley, Butler, Fisher). You have to go back to the 80's to find a Rams team that had a couple of guys who could cover (Irvin, Gray)

    Given this, it's no surprise that opposing offenses realise this as much as we do and game plan accordingly.

    Now, in order to avoid the obligatory statement about the pass rush (although I do think it's central to this debate), can someone suggest an alternative as of now that would be an undeniable upgrade over Fisher?

    I would suggest that you can't, because if we are to trust a coaching staff who we have lauded for their efforts in turning the team around this season, not least on defence, then we should also trust their ability to judge the available talent on the team.

    If we can't suggest an undeniable upgrade over Fisher with the personnel that we have, then to be perfectly honest, there's absolutely no point in continuing to lambast the fellow for performing true to his ability. One of the things that has become apparent amongst the many stats that have been hurled around is that he has never been outstandingly productive. So why then are some of us so enraged by his consistency?

    What should concern us all is that we have no proven alternative to throw into the mix in his place, and even if we did, I would have to resort to the obligatory pass rush statement to qualify our expectations.

    Be careful what you wish for because the alternatives could be far worse.

  10. #85
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Originally posted by Nick
    Well, as someone who thinks that playing the receiver and not the ball in certain situations is the right strategy, I can't say I agree. I'm simply trying to suggest that, similarly to where cornerbacks line up on the field, perhaps this tactic is the result of coaching rather than the decision of the actual player and thus people who have an issue with it should be looking at the coaches.
    Nick, I really do think it has alot to do with the coaching. I am under the weather and the line I typed "Im afraid that may be out." was meant to read "Im afraid that might be it." I did not realize the error till you quoted me.The fact that the whole team is not really looking for the ball would make me think that they are being taught to play the receiver.



    Originally post bySTLRAMSFAN
    Beliefs/Opinions on what makes a good/bad CB will always vary from person to person. Beliefs/Opinions on who is a good/bad CB will always vary from person to person.
    Yeah but there is certain undeniable facts that can prove or disprove those opinions. Is there anyone here that could disprove that Anneas Williams (I know I probably butchered the first name) was a poor corner? Is it anyones opinion the Deion sucked? If it is those opinions have no factual base they are just mindless pigheaded opinions.An opinion should be formed on what one sees not just "I feel that way so end of story." It is not opinion that Fisher has not been playing great it is fact. That does not necessarily mean he is playing poorly either. He needs to tighten up on crossing patterns and I think he need's to start playing the ball a little more. I think the Rams secondary as a whole needs to do something different because right now they are not getting the job done.

    Originally Posted by Nick
    I'm still waiting for someone on the other side to really start doing the same to try and convince me.
    I cant prove that he should not be the starter. I do not see anyone on that team outperforming him. I think hes being made the scapegoat in all of this. I dont exactly think his play has been stellar but how could I criticize only him when all our boys have been burned this year. The secondary needs to change their strategy as of now. You may not always want to play the ball but I beleive if Fisher turned his head around on the PI play that play would not resulted in positive yardage for the Seahawks. It was a huge mistake. Is that the only mistake made in the game? Absolutely not but it needs to be brought to the attention of the coaches. I have watched every game this year and the boys are not making plays on the ball. Sometimes you have too. If it is Haslett that has the cuffs on the boys then maybe he needs to take them off vs the Chargers and see if it helps. These guys are professionals sometimes you need to let them try and make plays.
    LET'S GO DODGERS

  11. #86
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN View Post
    Fishers 1 INT in his last 25 starts is horrible. But seems as though you are ignoring this stat.
    :x

    "I agree
    ." (in response to HUb saying "I, for one, would like to see Fisher create more TOs.")

    "Lack of turnovers is a concern that I believe HUb and I touched upon... But since then he's not done quite so well at creating turnovers. It's definitely an issue, I agree."

    "He's not been great, because he's had a few tackling gaffes and hasn't been able to come up with turnovers for whatever reason."

    I've commented on Fisher's lack of turnovers at least three times in this thread. To say I've ignored that is incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN View Post
    if I was going to go back and look at tape I would wan't to look at every snap not just the ones that show good or bad plays.
    That's what I'm doing. When I go back and watch the tape, I spend what usually amounts to over two hours per game watching the defensive series to see what's going on.


    Quote Originally Posted by STLRAMSFAN View Post
    I base my opinion off of watching him play and seeing him get burnt often. Do I recall all the plays he has got burnt on no
    Who said you had to remember all of them? A couple would suffice. Since as you said you've watched him get burnt often, I wouldn't think it would be very laborious to remember at least a handful of them. If you can't, then perhaps it would be a good idea to research and make sure your recollection of events is accurate, since after all you yourself admitted your memory isn't top notch.

    I guess I just don't understand your position. Earlier in this thread you asked for someone to prove Fisher wasn't a bad corner. I responded with links to such analysis and also referenced specific previous points brought up. Yet when the shoe was on the other foot and it was time to provide examples to show he was bad, your response was that it's not a matter of proving that player is bad or not because it's a matter of belief. If this isn't a matter of proving if a guy is bad or not, why did you ask me to? Why do you continue to bring up his stats to try and show he's bad if you don't believe it's a matter of proving he's bad?


    Quote Originally Posted by LaRamsFanLongTime View Post
    The fact that the whole team is not really looking for the ball would make me think that they are being taught to play the receiver.

    Yeah but there is certain undeniable facts that can prove or disprove those opinions.

    An opinion should be formed on what one sees not just "I feel that way so end of story." It is not opinion that Fisher has not been playing great it is fact. That does not necessarily mean he is playing poorly either.

    I think hes being made the scapegoat in all of this. I dont exactly think his play has been stellar but how could I criticize only him when all our boys have been burned this year.

    I beleive if Fisher turned his head around on the PI play that play would not resulted in positive yardage for the Seahawks.
    You brought up some very good points here, LA. I hope you feel better!
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  12. #87
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    I can state with confidence that Fisher will not get burned by receivers this week.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Re: Travis Fisher

    Is our DB situation bad enough to make signing a big FA corner a priority for 2007?

  14. #89
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    I think Nick made a good point in his article on this subject that a lot of times that we see an open man with Fisher 5-10 yards away, it may well be because we're playing a zone, especially with all the blitzing. That would be a coaching call. On the other hand, it is sometimes difficult to determine whether the opposing offense just found a hole in the zone or someone blew an assignment (not necessarily Fisher). Either way, I think the secondary as a whole probably need to play better heads up football. As soon as our guys see the ball in the air they ought to be converging on the target, especially if the target is between their zone and the next guy's.

    But to get back to Fisher, I agree with the assessment that he does a poor job of keeping track of where the ball is. And that is a problem. You play the man tight and don't go for the ball and you will get pass interference calls and you won't get interceptions. That is what the refs look for on PI: is the player going for the ball or the receiver? This particularly struck me a few minutes ago when I took a look at the online Pro Bowl ballot. Fisher is credited with 0 int, 22 tackles, and 1 pass defended. So he is 1 of only 8 CBs on the list that have 1 or less pass deflections (out of the 64 corners currently starting in the league), and most of the others have missed games due to injury. Some of the better corners in the league have knocked down 8, 9, 10 passes so far, and nearly half the starting corners have batted down 5 or more...Fisher has broken up a single pass (provided the NFL.com stats are correct). Now in Fisher's defense, he has played injured. I respect that, and stats don't tell the whole story. But those stats seem to corroborate assertions that he is the kind of corner that is just good enough to stay with his guy and make the tackle after the catch--but not good enough to actually prevent the catch. Now you can say what you want to about perfect passes and perfect catches, but one pass batted down and no interceptions must mean either he's not performing up to the same standard other corners around the league are or every ball that comes near him has been thrown so flawlessly that even with good positioning and coverage he never had a chance to get a hand on it. I think it is fair to say that his play has not been the quality you want from a starting corner. He shouldn't become the scapegoat for all of our secondary problems, though, because the only guy we've got who would be a definite upgrade at this point is a healthy Fakhir Brown.

  15. #90
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    Re: Travis Fisher

    I'm going to be a little concieted in suggesting that maybe this topic was intentional, to generate some heated debate around the board. To add fuel to the bye week fire, if I may say so.

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