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  1. #16
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    And I agree. I've never understood why he gets thrown under the bus by Rams fans.

    But HUb, he always injured.

    In 96 possible games over his career, he has missed a grand total of 12. Five in '06, and 7 in '07. And ZERO in the most recent season.

    But HUb, he's too inconsistent.

    In his 4 healthy seasons, he led the team in tackles 3 years, and missed the lead in his rookie year by 3 tackles. Per nfl.com.
    I think those two points are related. I'll give him props for going out there and battling through injuries, but he has spent much of his career at less than 100%. It's not really accurate to talk about "4 healthy seasons" when he ended 2006 and 2007 on injured reserve and played almost all of the 2004 season with a harness for his dislocated shoulder.

    The thing is you can quote tackle stats, but nobody keeps "missed tackle" stats. What the stats do show is that we've routinely been one of the worst teams against the run...which kind of suggests that nobody is making just a whole lot of plays near the line of scrimmage. Again, this seems like kind of a "big fish, small pond" type thing. Somebody had to drag the guy down eventually, and that somebody was often Pisa. However, if he was taking people down at the two yard line or behind the line of scrimmage, then teams probably wouldn't be averaging nearly 5 yards/carry against us.

    Regarding comments about his pass coverage, NFL.com does keep statistics on pass breakups and interceptions. Pisa recorded no interceptions in three of his six seasons. He broke up 2 passes and had 0 interceptions last season. By comparison, Will Witherspoon recorded 12 pass break-ups and 2 interceptions in his last season as a weakside linebacker (in Carolina).

    I like his energy and his toughness, but I have a hard time figuring out where he fits in the big picture of what we want to do on defense. Honestly, if you're talking about a 220 lb. player with limitations in coverage, you'd almost want to stick him at strong safety (which I think we tried in camp a number of years back).


  2. #17
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    The only problem with pisa is whether he can play strong side or not.
    He's a natural waekside linebacker, just like witherspoon just not as good. If he shows up at camp and kills it at slb then he will be the starter. It's going to be an open competition between pisa, draft, and culberson for the job.
    I'll say pisa gets it, with draft being a super-sub.

  3. #18
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleece
    I'll give him props for going out there and battling through injuries, but he has spent much of his career at less than 100%.
    It's like Eddie George said one year late in his Nashville career........"I haven't been 100% since my first down at Ohio State".
    It's not really accurate to talk about "4 healthy seasons" when he ended 2006 and 2007 on injured reserve and played almost all of the 2004 season with a harness for his dislocated shoulder.
    Bottomline.......he played 16 games in 4 seasons (2003, 2004, 2005, 2008), and led the defense in 3 of the 4 seasons, falling 2nd to Arch his rookie year.
    The thing is you can quote tackle stats, but nobody keeps "missed tackle" stats.
    Yet the Pisa critics try to use "missed tackles" as some kind of measuring stick. We can't measure what isn't measured, only what IS measured.
    Again, this seems like kind of a "big fish, small pond" type thing.
    Then why don't we cull out the little fish first, then worry about the big fish.


    Btw, I love the new avatar, Fleece!
    "Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

  4. #19
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    These negative arguments about Pisa are silly ...

    He's injury prone? How do you figure? He was beat up over a two season span. This frequently happens to bangers at that position. He's played the full 16 four out of 6 years ...

    Ray Lewis must be a real sissy then, he's only played the full 16 in 7 of his 14 years. And two of those seasons he played in less than 7 games ....

    Pisa sucks in pass coverage? Where does this come from? Alot of this is dependent on the schemes ...

    His first three years in the league, 20 passes defensed and 5 picks ...

    His last three years in the league, 5 passes defensed and 2 picks ....

    Different scheme plus injuries leads to decline in pass defense ...

    41 tackles for loss in 84 games played for Pisa T ....

    45 tackles for loss in his last 100 games played. Who would this player be? Ray Lewis ...

    Ahhhhh, Pisa is so under appreciated it's ridiculous, but what can you do?

  5. #20
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    I agree. Pisa is a talented backer who wasn't used properly the past couple of seasons. I'm looking forward to what Spags brings to the table with his defensive schemes. We picked up some good players but the defense will get a real boost when the players are all used for strengths.

  6. #21
    Azul e Oro is offline Registered User
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    I stand corrected on Pisa leading the team in tackles when our LB corps was at its worst but his numbers, BY NFL WIDE STANDARDS, are indeed average at best. And that was the argument in the OP that I was challenging. just because we have options who I think will be better now that the quality of the front 7 as a whole has been improved doesn't mean I don't appreciate him.

    Nobody would be more pleased than me to find out that I'm wrong but other than a rotation at WILL, I don't see how it can happen.

    Top OLBs in the league always seem to be in the 120-140 tackles per season range.That's, what?, an extra tackle or two per game that I'd rather bet on Spoon or Draft or possibly QC making in coverage on a TE or RB on a route out of the backfield than Pisa.

    As I said before his heart and energy make it hard for this Rams fan not to be partial to the guy but because he played through injuries & didn't miss games doesn't mean that his being injury-prone can be ignored for the longterm.

    And that his defensive coach through a good part of his career, Haslett, talked about his poor technique being partially responsible for those injuries indicates to me that his scouting analysis was weak. It's surely a big part of what separates good college players from those who will be effective in the NFL.

    Just ask Zack Follett. High-motor,tough,smart, but tends to get hurt because he lacks ideal size & technique.

    The Rams recent draft history is littered with guys like that.

    Archuleta who beat out Pisa for top Ram tackler in '03 is another good example. 76 tackles is not better than average for a starting OLB. 104 is better but that's his best by a good margin.I think it's likely, going into his 7th year with the injury history, that Pisa has peaked. Again, I hope I am wrong.

    Of course his past numbers have been affected by the players in front of him and beside him as well as injuries/talent.And it sucks that we have this talent jam at WILL now but that doesn't mean we should force a square peg into a round hole at SAM or that he is an equally complete LB in comparison to Spoon.

  7. #22
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    If we start PISA and WITHERSPOON again this year we wont stop the run. We need to start a differant SLB, VOBORA, CULBERSON or CHAMBERLAIN.

  8. #23
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    These negative arguments about Pisa are silly ...

    He's injury prone? How do you figure? He was beat up over a two season span. This frequently happens to bangers at that position. He's played the full 16 four out of 6 years ...
    I suspect the "injury prone" tag is related to dislocating his shoulders on multiple occasions, dislocating his elbow, breaking both hands in the same season, tearing his MCL, etc. Just because he plays doesn't mean he isn't injured.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    Pisa sucks in pass coverage? Where does this come from? Alot of this is dependent on the schemes ...

    His first three years in the league, 20 passes defensed and 5 picks ...

    His last three years in the league, 5 passes defensed and 2 picks ....

    Different scheme plus injuries leads to decline in pass defense ...
    That "plus injuries" is a big part of it. He missed 11 more games in his last three years than in the first three. But if it was the scheme, what exactly was he doing on passing downs if not dropping into coverage? His sack totals suggest he wasn't blitzing, and conventional wisdom says that the whole point of having a lighter, faster player at the "Will" spot is because you need someone who can cover. I just don't think schematic issues have a whole lot to do with whether you stop the guy you're supposed to cover from making catches.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamsInfiniti View Post
    41 tackles for loss in 84 games played for Pisa T ....

    45 tackles for loss in his last 100 games played. Who would this player be? Ray Lewis ...
    Which just emphasizes that stats don't tell the whole story. With Ray, the proof is in the pudding. Ask offensive players around the league and they'll tell you about encounters with Ray Lewis. Look at the effectiveness of the defenses he has played on, and you can see what they've accomplished. As for Pisa, did anyone notice a significant drop-off when Draft was starting in his place in 2007?

    In fact, Draft actually batted down 5 passes that year despite starting only 6 games. By comparison, Pisa has only broken up more than 4 in one of his six seasons (he broke up 7 in 2005), and Witherspoon has broken up 7+ in all but two of his NFL seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Then why don't we cull out the little fish first, then worry about the big fish.
    Hopefully, we're getting to that point. Leonard Little is the only defensive player left from Pisa's early playing days. I feel like the problem we're getting into now is that although Pisa was one of our top performers among the linebackers, Witherspoon plays the same position and is better. Getting back to an earlier post, do the Pisa-ites think he'll be able to start at strongside linebacker? Do you guys think that Pisa is a better weakside linebacker than Will Witherspoon? I'm just trying to be realistic here and say that Pisa might be our best backup, but I really don't see how he gets on the field much unless someone gets injured.

    Quote Originally Posted by HUbison View Post
    Btw, I love the new avatar, Fleece!
    Thanks!

  9. #24
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    PISA's a cover-2 sceme player. Lovie's been gone for years now, its time for newe starters!

  10. #25
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Question, does a better front four help the LBs? I think so. I've also heard that a good pass rush from the front four helps the CBs. At least that's what everyone on here has said.

    Until we get better play from the front four, we are going to hang everyone else out to dry.

  11. #26
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Quote Originally Posted by txramsfan View Post
    Question, does a better front four help the LBs? I think so. I've also heard that a good pass rush from the front four helps the CBs. At least that's what everyone on here has said.

    Until we get better play from the front four, we are going to hang everyone else out to dry.
    Exactly. For me, this is the qualifier that applies to all our LB's. It's hard to judge a group that has to deal with backs charging through the front four like they weren't there. No LB corp is going to look good or make all their tackles under those circumstances. Pisa is all heart and if he and the other LB's get a little help at the point of attack, things are going to get a lot better IMO.

  12. #27
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Pisa weighing 225?? are you kidding me, I met him in St.Louis,he's luck if he's 220, soak and wet. He looks more like a strong safety. I like Pisa, he has alot of heart, but he is waaaayyy undersized and NOT very fast.

  13. #28
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    but he is fast he's a blitz strong linebacker.
    Last edited by hawaiianpunch; -04-30-2009 at 07:06 PM.

  14. #29
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Quote Originally Posted by blood85 View Post
    Pisa weighing 225?? are you kidding me, I met him in St.Louis,he's luck if he's 220, soak and wet. He looks more like a strong safety. I like Pisa, he has alot of heart, but he is waaaayyy undersized and NOT very fast.
    Pisa at the combine ran his 40 in 4.61 fastest linebacker in his draft class, and had the fastest time for the linebacker cone drill with 6.85. the only linebacker with a better 40 than pisa is Aaron Curry. do your research. Pisas cone drill is also faster than Laurinitus and Curry. hes was also listed at 235 as of the beginning of mini camp this season.[ all information combine information honolulu advertiser.com]

    oh yes hes fast...
    Last edited by hawaiianpunch; -04-30-2009 at 07:41 PM.

  15. #30
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    Re: The under-rated linebacker Named Pisa

    Quote Originally Posted by hawaiianpunch View Post
    I believe this was actually the first year Pisa has led the team in tackles. He had 76 in his debut year according to NFLdotcom, 3 fewer than Archuleta. And there have been several years down around 40-50, mostly because of the injuries.
    The info i stated above at the beggining of this thread was from ESPN and backed up by stlouisrams.com. He led the team in tackle for 3 1/2 years. his first year 2003. he lead the rookies on the team with 76 tackles, 2 sacks, 2 interceptions, First ram rookie linebacker ever to do so Check Stlouisrams.com. Pisa didnt get injured this past season where he still lead the team in tackles with 100 tackles 88 solo, 3 sacks, 3 passes defended, and 19 tackles for a loss, 19!!! people hes pretty damn good!!!! he led the team 2004, 2005, 2007 for the beggining, and 2008.

    I know my boy, i know all his stats and i have back up from where i got them from.
    Last edited by hawaiianpunch; -04-30-2009 at 07:44 PM.

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